Baseball or Basketball - what would do better here?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by phesto

Agreed. I posted about this in another thread, but you'd need to make a business case for selling 2,000,000 tickets and an 81 game schedule.

Compare that to our current sports teams (from most recent season, home games not including preseason or playoffs):

Canucks - 41 games, 773,000
Lions - 9 games, 270,000
Whitecaps - 17 games, 363,000
Canadians - 24 games, 146,000
Giants - 35 games, 246,000

Going to a baseball game is far cheaper than going to a hockey game. The cheapest seat for a Blue Jays game is $11, while the cheapest seat for a Canucks game is over $60 (excluding some very limited promotions). It costs less to go to a baseball game than it does to go to a movie.

The single A Vancouver Canadians average over 4000 people per game, with ticket prices ranging from 12.50 to 22.00 dollars, for as low a profile a team that you could possibly get in Vancouver. Baseball is the one sport that can attract people just for the sake of being at the ballpark.

Build a park around downtown, and with our spectacular setting and our high population density, you are going to get good crowds.

[YTOmike]

Agreed. And Phesto, your numbers look staggering but I suspect the routinely sold-out Canucks could easily sell more tickets if there were more games or the arena was bigger. The sports fan dollars are out there, you just need to provide a product for sale.

Baseball would become the #2 sports draw in the city. The Lions, Whitecaps and Canadians might suffer, but a MLB team could make a go here.

As for triple A, the triple A team that moved to Sacramento in 1999 was here for over 20 years. The move was not necessarily related to profitability, but rather to bring the team closer to its parent, Oakland. However, playing out of the Nat may not have been ideal for a club of at level, so a new ballpark would be needed anyway.

Let's hope someone with the financial wherewithal is reading this and tries to prepare a business case.

Originally Posted by logan5

Going to a baseball game is far cheaper than going to a hockey game. The cheapest seat for a Blue Jays game is $11, while the cheapest seat for a Canucks game is over $60 (excluding some very limited promotions). It costs less to go to a baseball game than it does to go to a movie.

The single A Vancouver Canadians average over 4000 people per game, with ticket prices ranging from 12.50 to 22.00 dollars, for as low a profile a team that you could possibly get in Vancouver. Baseball is the one sport that can attract people just for the sake of being at the ballpark.

Build a park around downtown, and with our spectacular setting and our high population density, you are going to get good crowds.

[go_leafs_go02]

The thing is, you won't get probably AA or AAA baseball playing in the Nat. That place has its charm, but a new ballpark, that's more central and better located would be key to getting a team of that level back.

[thedan8]

Originally Posted by logan5

Vancouver is an outdoorsy type city and baseball caters to that aspect of our city. Given our cities strong baseball roots, we should at least have a AAA team, and when that's a smashing success we can start considering an upgrade to MLB. A triple A team would probably be more profitable than the Lions and Whitecaps combined - it's just a matter of getting the right people to build a top notch venue.

The problem with making the jump to AAA is that it adds a lot of costs for very little extra revenue. The casual fan, which are the vast majority of Canadian's fans, won't notice the difference between single A and AAA. At least it won't be an extra draw. AAA it starts in early April as opposed to single A which starts in mid June. That's 2 and a half extra months of trying to sell tickets to fickle fans in rainy Vancouver. The costs of travel and roster are much higher. Also the Canadians would have to raise money to renovate that Nat to accommodate around 10K fans. This would lead to a surge of nimbys.

Single A ball is a bit of a cash cow in Vancouver. The cost/benefit isn't there to make the jump.

[thedan8]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

The thing is, you won't get probably AA or AAA baseball playing in the Nat. That place has its charm, but a new ballpark, that's more central and better located would be key to getting a team of that level back.

The only AA baseball leagues are either on the East coast,Texas, or The South. It's AAA or nothing for Vancouver.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by thedan8

The problem with making the jump to AAA is that it adds a lot of costs for very little extra revenue. The casual fan, which are the vast majority of Canadian's fans, won't notice the difference between single A and AAA. At least it won't be an extra draw. AAA it starts in early April as opposed to single A which starts in mid June. That's 2 and a half extra months of trying to sell tickets to fickle fans in rainy Vancouver. The costs of travel and roster are much higher. Also the Canadians would have to raise money to renovate that Nat to accommodate around 10K fans. This would lead to a surge of nimbys.

Single A ball is a bit of a cash cow in Vancouver. The cost/benefit isn't there to make the jump.

My plan would be to build a new AAA stadium (upgrade-able to MLB standard like they have in Buffalo) some where in the downtown area, so it is accessible by transit or by walking. The Nat is pretty much a neighborhood ballpark.

The top AAA teams draw an average of 8000 - 9000 fans per game. Vancouver could surely match or beat that with a proper venue. (not an upgraded Nat). Coca cola field in Buffalo has a capacity of 18 000. Build a similar venue in Vancouver that's near transit and we would fill that stadium on a lot of summer evenings.

A well run AAA team is even more of a cash cow because the player salaries are paid for by the parent club.

[phesto]

Originally Posted by thedan8

The problem with making the jump to AAA is that it adds a lot of costs for very little extra revenue. The casual fan, which are the vast majority of Canadian's fans, won't notice the difference between single A and AAA. At least it won't be an extra draw. AAA it starts in early April as opposed to single A which starts in mid June. That's 2 and a half extra months of trying to sell tickets to fickle fans in rainy Vancouver. The costs of travel and roster are much higher. Also the Canadians would have to raise money to renovate that Nat to accommodate around 10K fans. This would lead to a surge of nimbys.

Single A ball is a bit of a cash cow in Vancouver. The cost/benefit isn't there to make the jump.

Agreed. To be fair though, the average AAA team in the PCL only averages about 5,000 in attendance per game. Even if you factor in dismal crowds in April and May, we would likely still be in the upper half of the league in attendance. Add to that the potential draw and marketing opportunities of being the AAA affiliate of the Blue Jays would add interest (the current affiliation is less than compelling) and Rogers would see accretive value and strengthening of the Blue Jays' TV ratings locally.

I don't think the ongoing operational costs would outweigh the benefit but certainly expanding the Nat or building a new stadium would be prohibitive without something like financial support/partnership from a parent like Rogers.

[Vancity]

Oakland A's may be looking for a new home. Vancouver?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Vancity

Oakland A's may be looking for a new home. Vancouver?

All we need is a suitable ballpark and an owner. Other than those 2 small obstacles they're practically here!

[phesto]

The Seattle Mariners set consecutive record lows for attendance earlier this week at just over 10,000 fans per game...

http://mynorthwest.com/76/2249155/Lo...as-NOT-a-fluke

This further proves my point that baseball in April and May in Vancouver would be an absolute disaster as far as attendance goes.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by phesto

The Seattle Mariners set consecutive record lows for attendance earlier this week at just over 10,000 fans per game...

http://mynorthwest.com/76/2249155/Lo...as-NOT-a-fluke

This further proves my point that baseball in April and May in Vancouver would be an absolute disaster as far as attendance goes.

How come?

[thedan8]

Originally Posted by Vancity

How come?

The Mariners haven't made the playoffs since 2001, and have been in general fairly awful. They haven't been able to retain good players. Even Ichiro left last year. Combine an 81 game schedule and the recent success of the Seahawks and Sounders, they haven't been able to draw flies.

[EastVanMark]

Vancouver Canadians keep packing the Nat
More fans go to C’s games than 11 triple-A teams across North America

BY STEVE EWEN, THE PROVINCE SEPTEMBER 5, 2015

MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL ATTENDANCE

As of Saturday morning

1. Charlotte Knights (Triple A International League) 9,428
2. Indianapolis Indians (Triple A International) 9,253
3. Sacramento River Cats (Triple A Pacific Coast) 9,159
4. Columbus Clippers (Triple A International) 9,016
5. Lehigh Valley IronPIgs (Triple A International) 8,787
6. Round Rock Express (Triple A Pacific Coast) 8,571
7. Buffalo Bisons (Triple A International) 8,228
8. Daytona Dragons (Single A Midwest) 8,206
9. El Paso Chihuahuas (Triple A Pacific Coast) 8,154
10. Albuquerque Isotopes (Triple A Pacific Coast) 8,007
11. Nashville Sounds (Triple A Pacific Coast) 7,965
12. Durham Bulls (Triple A International) 7,740
13. Toledo MudHens (Triple A International) 7,699
14. IowaC ubs (Triple A Pacific Coast) 7,531
15. Louisville Bats (Triple A International) 7,525
16. Oklahoma City Dodgers (Triple A Pacific Coast) 6,955
17. Salt Lake Bees (Triple A Pacific Coast) 6,823
18. Frisco Rough Riders (Double A Texas) 6,820
19. Pawtucket Red Sox (Triple A International) 6,537
20. Fresno Grizzlies (Triple A Pacific Coast) 6,401
21. Birmingham Barons (Double A Southern) 6,352
22. Rochester Red Wings (Triple A International) 6,291
23. Brooklyn Cyclones (Short Season Single A NewY ork-Penn) 6,213
24. Reading Fightin Phils (Double A Eastern) 6,044
25. Richmond Flying Squirrels (Double A Eastern) 6,003
26. Fort Wayne Tin Caps (Single A Midwest) 5,964
27. Tulsa Drillers (Double A Texas) 5,858
28. Vancouver Canadians (Short Season Single A Northwest) 5,815


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ew...417/story.html

[EastVanMark]

Tremendous accomplishment by the C's. They beat out a number of Triple A teams who play in larger, more comfortable ballparks, and only the Brooklyn Cyclones who play in a history soaked, large-scale baseball hotbed in a superior ballpark beat them from their own level. The work Andy Dunn & Co. have done in the past seasons has really paid off. Perhaps the C's could teach the other pro teams in this city how to properly market their respective teams.

[logan5]

It's obvious that there is strong support for baseball in Vancouver. We need a new ballpark that can accommodate more fans. The new ballpark in Charlotte cost 54 million to build, so it's not a huge cost to get a 10 000 capacity ballpark. The ultimate baseball stadium would be where the Whitecaps proposal was, but southeast false creek would be awesome as well.

[jlousa]

Not to take away from the tremendous job the Canadians have done, but they did benefit from one of the best summers in history, the fact they play a shortened season also gives them an advantage, it would be a little harder to draw large crowds over a longer season with questionable weather. That all said, love what they are doing, the upgrades to the Nat have been well worth it. Don't think demand is there for a 10K stadium anytime soon though. More modest upgrades every couple of years and we'll see in decade or two.

[EastVanMark]

The Summer weather definitely benefited the team no question, but there are 21 other short season league teams, and only 1 beat them in the attendance count. And although it certainly would be true that drawing in fans in early Spring and Fall has historically and would always be a challenge, the exact opposite could also be said about a better ballpark in a more advantageous location drawing in more fans.

[dennis1]

https://twitter.com/TSN1040/status/821831573666430978

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by dennis1

https://twitter.com/TSN1040/status/821831573666430978

it's awesome news.

hopefully, more to come, but I suspect, it won't be for several years before anything concrete happens. Glad to hear that the league wants to prove that it can make it work in Vancouver, cause I think Vancouver can handle and support an NBA franchise. but no more ridiculous draft restrictions, like not picking 1st overall for the first five years, that's just a recipe for failure.

[phesto]

So Vancouver could potentially be on the list of top 5 cities that the NBA would consider for possible, though unconfirmed expansion (likely by 2 teams max) several years from now?