Calgary Public Transit II

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Well that pretty much sums up which line he thinks should be built first. I'm sorry but that's horseshit! You mean to tell me that the MASSIVE workforce that is employed in the foothills industrial park, many of whom are immigrants or lower income workers who rely on substandard bus service don't deserve rail transit? The North will have 3 lines if NCLRT is built whereas the south will only have 1 (I'm sorry but I don't count the West line as part of the south). If Nenshi pushes for the North line first I'm not voting for him again.

I don't think it sums up anything about which line he thinks should be built first. He's just saying that the benefits of each are going to be evaluated. Either one is going to cost a whole lot of money, so we better make sure that we are doing the best one first, and not swayed by politics.

My opinion is that do you want to turn bus riders into LRT riders (NC), or to turn car drivers into LRT riders (SE). Ultimately you want to do both, but getting people out of their cars should be the first priority, IMO.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Northski

SELRT, NCLRT, and 8th ave subway would probably cost 6 billion dollars. Spread out over 20 years would cost 300 million per year to build it out.

A 5c per liter gas tax increase for Calgary would bring in about 120 million per year.

I would rather see broad based tax increases to pay for lrt rather than special assessments. How would you make special assessments for the ring road, Glenmore, Crowchild, Deerfoot, Metis, John Laurie, McKnight, Airport trail, MacLoud, and BRTs ....

I'm glad to see someone is trying to think of solutions. I'd prefer broad based funding too, but I think it will ultimately require funds from the Federal, Provincial, and Municipal government, in addition to some kind of self-imposed consumer tax or structural reform to revenue generation.

Alberta's entire transportation budget is only around 475 million per year, but big surpluses can come with one time grants (Ralph bucks, for example costed 1.4 billion). Thanks to the existence of the WRP, I can't see the PCs introducing any new taxes for a while.

While the feds occasionally throw a few hundred million at a project, I think they feel (as does the province) that rapid transit benefits the city so the city should pay for it. While it would be nice if Calgary could build this kind of project on its own, property taxes can only be raised so high. Calgary's success with past projects has largely been due to policy. I've written something like this before, but here are a few steps that I think would help alleviate the burden of this project:
(1) Protect the right of way. Move utilities when possible. Set development rules.
(2) Property tax reform. Assess tax based not only on the value of the property, but also on the infrastructure and service needs of that property. This means increased taxes to SFD homes on the periphery of the city as well as costs to developers, and stable taxation to those who live in more modest housing, especially in the inner city, especially in apartments and condos.
(3) Alternative revenue generation. Parking fees city wide. Taxation on private parking lots. Force purchase of transit pass with new car sales. Gas tax. Creative solutions. As much as I oppose new taxes, if they punish bad behaviour and fund good-behaviour projects, I'm in. Calgary will have to use every tool it can if it wants SE/NCLRT.
(4) Increased municipal power. This one is a long shot. Today, Canada is far more urbanized than it was in its first 75 years when the majority of its political institutions were defined. Representation must more closely reflect riding population. While Canadian cities are unique from one another, their needs are largely the same. City dwellers deserve an equal voice to those who live in rural areas.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

I think it's fair to say at this point he is only asking the question, not answering it. I don't mind the question being asked, especially if we are in a position to not be able to fund the SE LRT for decades, but maybe the NCLRT sooner (not sure if this is true however)

Will the Foothills industrial area be a large draw for transit users? I'm curious about travel patterns in this area (not that familiar with it). I assumed that the line be frequented more by people who live, rather than work, in the SE, but not sure about that at all.

Ultimately I think that getting new people onto transit might be a better priority than increasing the transit experience for existing users, simply from an infrastructure perspective. Less private vehicles entering downtown from any direction has to be a better use of money.

Having worked in the foothills Industrial Parks at several jobs I can tell you with great certainty there is a very large proportion of the workforce there without the means to own a car. Even though the SELRT isn't planned to go into the heart of the industrial park it will only help to boost feeder bus routes and also to get people from various parts of the city into the general vicinity.

EDIT: This whole issue makes me incredibly bitter in case you can't tell. How can Nenshi claim to want to build a better city for all Calgarians, then shit on an entire quadrant of it and say that it's too spread out and sprawly to even bother improving. I'm sorry but the argument to build LRT where there's already higher bus ridership and to punish an area of the city with lower bus ridership is just stupid. To me you should be looking at how you can improve the ridership in that part of the city and ask yourself, "Gee, why do you think it is that not as many people here ride the bus?" Oh yeah, because there's only one fucking road in and out of it!!!!

Isn't it kind of hypocritical of Nenshi to effectively say 'screw you' if you decide to move to the SE of the city? I thought the point of transit was to get more cars off the road. To point to low transit usage by citizens of the SE is really unfair and besides the point, as there is substandard transit there at the moment and only one major access point (Deerfoot Trail). The only way to make transit more appealing to people who live past Douglasdale is to give them an option that doesn't require taking the same route as all the single occupancy cars on the road. Otherwise it's easy to see yourself stuck in traffic if you drive a car or take the bus, so what's the benefit of using transit? To me this whole thing seems incredibly partisan (more liberal demographics in NC = more votes for Nenshi). I may be jumping the gun here, but I don't like this about face he's pulling.

[5seconds]

Good point regarding workers in the industrial areas, I assume that demand is being captured in the studies.

I don't read that statement as saying 'Screw You' to the SE. I see it more of a "With the funding we have, there may only be so much we can afford to do to help with commutes. The reality is that SE communities are far from the city, and the owners might just have to recognise that the cost/benefit might be lower here than elsewhere."

Also, would the SE LRT just induce more sprawl? Would the NC line be better overall to spur the densification of the more inner-city areas rather than the SE?

I'm inclined to think that we need the SE LRT and the NC LRT soon, but it's good to ask the questions.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Good point regarding workers in the industrial areas, I assume that demand is being captured in the studies.

I don't read that statement as saying 'Screw You' to the SE. I see it more of a "With the funding we have, there may only be so much we can afford to do to help with commutes. The reality is that SE communities are far from the city, and the owners might just have to recognise that the cost/benefit might be lower here than elsewhere."

Also, would the SE just induce more sprawl? Would the NC line be better overall to spur the densification of the more inner-city areas rather than the SE?
I'm inclined to think that we need the SE LRT and the NC LRT soon, but it's good to ask the questions.

Yesterday on CHQR they had the alderman for the North Central Ward of the city on, and she was saying how Keystone Hills will house 60,000 ppl and how future employment centres in the area will require rail transit. That was one of her major arguments for the LRT. That is not reducing sprawl. If anything it's arguing for rail service to accomodate it. Now you mean to tell me an area of the city that is currently surging with population and business growth shouldn't get rail service first because of a future development in the north? Plus, developments like Seton and the new South Hospital would be the first Greenfield TOD's with massive draw for employees. Not to mention Quarry Park and Douglas Glen Industrial area.

LRT is the only way to escape gridlock in the SE as Deerfoot and the Ring Road are the only major access points. You can't build more roads, you need to give drivers an alternative.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Well that pretty much sums up which line he thinks should be built first. I'm sorry but that's horseshit! You mean to tell me that the MASSIVE workforce that is employed in the foothills industrial park, many of whom are immigrants or lower income workers who rely on substandard bus service don't deserve rail transit? The North will have 3 lines if NCLRT is built whereas the south will only have 1 (I'm sorry but I don't count the West line as part of the south). If Nenshi pushes for the North line first I'm not voting for him again.

Just to play Devil's advocate. North Central Calgary has 150K people. SE Calgary has 87K. The distance to Country Hills Blvd is 13km from downtown. The distance to South Hospital is 23km. So almost twice the distance for just over 60% of the people. Sure there is employment, but the line will be on the outskirts of Foothills Industrial, and the employment concentration in industrial areas is sparse at best. The vast, vast majority of workers in Foothills Industrial will be well beyond walking distance to any LRT station. It is the most expensive line for the lowest ridership. Industrial workers would be better served by upgrading the 176 to 301-type service (limited stops etc).

Flip side of the coin: SE has poor transit service, and really only one road (Deerfoot) connecting it to downtown, let alone anywhere else, so the edge transit will have over driving is substantial. While the NC is more populous, it is well served by the 301, so future LRT can wait. While the NC may have greater ridership on the LRT, the SE will probably have more new riders. As well, large employment areas are served by the SE LRT (Foothills, Highfield, etc), even if not as centrally as desired. Feeder buses can serve industrial workers from stops like Ogden, South Hill and Douglasdale.

[O-tacular]

Again this all ties back to that question of is it better to improve transit for people who currently use it, or is it better to get new users who equal more cars off the road? I think the latter has and will continue to be the city's mandate. Though the addition of 4 car trains still can't come soon enough.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Again this all ties back to that question of is it better to improve transit for people who currently use it, or is it better to get new users who equal more cars off the road? I think the latter has and will continue to be the city's mandate. Though the addition of 4 car trains still can't come soon enough.

Just because the NC line is also served by other transit, that doesn't mean they are necessarily using that transit. If the NC LRT entices more people onto transit (especially further north) as opposed to just enticing bus riders onto the train, and if there are almost 2x the number of people potentially served by that line, a NC line might still take more cars off the road for less cost than by going to the SE.

EDIT: To be clear, I am not advocating one over the other. I think the SE has a more urgent need for better transit, but not sure which would serve more people or which would take more cars off the roads.

[Full Mountain]

I don't think you can do an accurate comparison between the NC and the SE ridership numbers given the existing transit service to the SE. Once a proper BRTisk system is in place the numbers will be a more valid comparison.

Priorities should be:
1. SE BRT off major throughfares, if possible on dedicated ROW given the difficulty of running the buses on-road
2. NC LRT
3. SE LRT

The biggest issue is that #1 needs to be achieved in the next couple of years, not in the 7-10 year time frame that has been quoted.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Originally Posted by Cage

I think I am starting to like this Nenshi guy. If he keeps up with quotes like the above bolded portions, I just might vote for Nenshi next year.

Did you just not vote in the last election?

[polishavenger]

Originally Posted by fusili

Street-running LRT on Centre Street anyone? Costs would be reduced about 80% from a subway (just making this up of course, but it would be substantial).

I think that would be disastrous. the NC line needs to be grade seperated until it gets north of 64th Ave.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

I think that would be disastrous. the NC line needs to be grade seperated until it gets north of 64th Ave.

Why? There are no major cross streets, other than McKnight, between 16th and 64th. Most intersections can be right-in-right-outs and those that remain open, such as 20th, 30th and 40th, McKnight, can be grade separated by either a short train tunnel, elevated portion or a road underpass. Otherwise, intersection signals can be controlled by the trains, so pedestrians can cross. How much traffic is there really going across Centre that can't just as easily use Edmonton Trail or 4th Street and then 16th or McKnight?

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by fusili

Just to play Devil's advocate. North Central Calgary has 150K people. SE Calgary has 87K. The distance to Country Hills Blvd is 13km from downtown. The distance to South Hospital is 23km. So almost twice the distance for just over 60% of the people. Sure there is employment, but the line will be on the outskirts of Foothills Industrial, and the employment concentration in industrial areas is sparse at best. The vast, vast majority of workers in Foothills Industrial will be well beyond walking distance to any LRT station. It is the most expensive line for the lowest ridership. Industrial workers would be better served by upgrading the 176 to 301-type service (limited stops etc).

Flip side of the coin: SE has poor transit service, and really only one road (Deerfoot) connecting it to downtown, let alone anywhere else, so the edge transit will have over driving is substantial.While the NC is more populous, it is well served by the 301, so future LRT can wait. While the NC may have greater ridership on the LRT, the SE will probably have more new riders. As well, large employment areas are served by the SE LRT (Foothills, Highfield, etc), even if not as centrally as desired. Feeder buses can serve industrial workers from stops like Ogden, South Hill and Douglasdale.

That last part is the distinction for me. The SE probably has the highest potential of any other line to be a draw for more than just DT. I would even argue it would serve commuters outside the SE almost as much as those living there. Just think of the new hospital alone and how many employees will be travelling there. Now factor in the density of Quarry Park businesses and then consider all the industrial beyond. To me the LRT component will need a very strong network of buses at key stops like the ones you mentioned (Ogden, Douglasdale etc.) to fully succeed. That's why imo even if they only do it in phases and build up to Ogden, you could still serve a massive portion of the industrial areas with connector buses. The fact the city doesn't seem to recognize the needs of the workforce outside the core is troubling. I know it's more spread out, but that's why you have buses in conjunction with the train.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

That last part is the distinction for me. The SE probably has the highest potential of any other line to be a draw for more than just DT. I would even argue it would serve commuters outside the SE almost as much as those living there. Just think of the new hospital alone and how many employees will be travelling there. Now factor in the density of Quarry Park businesses and then consider all the industrial beyond. To me the LRT component will need a very strong network of buses at key stops like the ones you mentioned (Ogden, Douglasdale etc.) to fully succeed. That's why imo even if they only do it in phases and build up to Ogden, you could still serve a massive portion of the industrial areas with connector buses. The fact the city doesn't seem to recognize the needs of the workforce outside the core is troubling. I know it's more spread out, but that's why you have buses in conjunction with the train.

It's not that they don't recognize it, just that they understand that getting considerable ridership from industrial areas is extremely difficult.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by fusili

It's not that they don't recognize it, just that they understand that getting considerable ridership from industrial areas is extremely difficult.

Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but at several different jobs I've held over the years in the Foothills Industrial area I worked with more than a handful of people who didn't own cars and had to take the bus. The bus network out there is not the strongest. Many new workers who come to our city end up getting jobs that don't require much education and naturally end up at places in that area. Now I don't want to make this a class war thing, because I realize the logistics of serving an area as small as DT vs. the entire SE Industrial area. But when you talk about public transit I think low income earners should be near the top of your priority list.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but at several different jobs I've held over the years in the Foothills Industrial area I worked with more than a handful of people who didn't own cars and had to take the bus. The bus network out there is not the strongest. Many new workers who come to our city end up getting jobs that don't require much education and naturally end up at places in that area. Now I don't want to make this a class war thing, because I realize the logistics of serving an area as small as DT vs. the entire SE Industrial area. But when you talk about public transit I think low income earners should be near the top of your priority list.

Agree 100% (did my master's thesis on urban transportation, focused a lot on low-income transportation. Many of my study participants did not own a car). I think a great interim solution is to seriously upgrade the 176 to a 301-style service. Bus service to Foothills Industrial needs to seriously improve.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by fusili

Agree 100% (did my master's thesis on urban transportation, focused a lot on low-income transportation. Many of my study participants did not own a car). I think a great interim solution is to seriously upgrade the 176 to a 301-style service. Bus service to Foothills Industrial needs to seriously improve.

Agreed. That would be an interim solution. My biggest fear about delaying the SELRT though is that the price tag will just keep growing with construction costs and become insurmountable. Like I said before, it's at least a decade overdue and once that Hospital opens things are only going to get worse.

The city has spent all it can on road infrastructure in that area, (52nd St. twinning / expansion, irrigation canal overpass, ring road, Deerfoot interchanges). They shouldn't spend another dime on roads in the SE til the LRT is built. And the other big difference between the SE and North Central is that the north has a street grid that is much easier to navigate and access than the SE does. I think you touched on this already but I just wanted to point that out again.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Agreed. That would be an interim solution. My biggest fear about delaying the SELRT though is that the price tag will just keep growing with construction costs and become insurmountable. Like I said before, it's at least a decade overdue and once that Hospital opens things are only going to get worse.

The city has spent all it can on road infrastructure in that area, (52nd St. twinning / expansion, irrigation canal overpass, ring road, Deerfoot interchanges). They shouldn't spend another dime on roads in the SE til the LRT is built. And the other big difference between the SE and North Central is that the north has a street grid that is much easier to navigate and access than the SE does. I think you touched on this already but I just wanted to point that out again.

I think the idea to build dedicated bus lanes that can be easily converted to LRT is a great step right now. It allows us to compare transit service more equally and provides temporary relief.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by fusili

I think the idea to build dedicated bus lanes that can be easily converted to LRT is a great step right now. It allows us to compare transit service more equally and provides temporary relief.

For sure! I just think it needs to happen a lot sooner than by 2019.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

For sure! I just think it needs to happen a lot sooner than by 2019.

Got a cheque the City can have?

The real downside to all this is, even if they decided what line was to go next there simply is no money to do anything significant.

My opinion (for what it is worth). If I lived in the SE, I would be very upset about the talk of not making the SE line a priority. Especially if I bought a house there with the knowledge that the train will be coming eventually, and was the next big priority. Hell, the Mayor even campaigned on the fact that it was one of his top priorities. If that changed now, I would feel very cheated.

Edit: I do like the fact that there is talk of reviewing which line goes first based on a comprehensive "bang for the buck" review, and that the NC line might rank higher and therefore go first. That is how ALL infrastructure should be prioritized. BUT, when you promise something, and people make huge life choices potentially on that promise (like buying a house because that will be where the next LRT goes), I think you need to live up to your word. I guess personally I am pretty neutral as to which goes first, simply because I don't live in the SE. But if I did (see O-tacular) I can empathize with the frustration/anger.