Calgary Public Transit II

[fusili]

If you haven't yet, go check out the demonstration Flexity Freedom tram vehicle that Bombardier is showing on Stephan Avenue (until Friday IIRC).

Here are some notes:
- Can be either a 3-module, or 5-module set-up.
- The 5-module consist can carry 251 people
- The modules can be combined into multi-car trains, up to 4 cars
- This works out to a total of 1000 people per train
- Maximum carrying capacity is 30 000 people per direction per hour (I guess they are assuming headways of 2 min)
- Floor of cars are about 8" off the ground
- Can operate wirelessly through induction power transfer
- A few trains are currently using the induction transfer system, as are new buses in Montreal. Some prototypes for cars and trucks are in the works

So, wow. I never knew these things could actually be combined to be up to 1000 people. That is pretty massive.

[kap384]

Where on Stephen Ave?

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by fusili

If you haven't yet, go check out the demonstration Flexity Freedom tram vehicle that Bombardier is showing on Stephan Avenue (until Friday IIRC).

Here are some notes:
- Can be either a 3-module, or 5-module set-up.
- The 5-module consist can carry 251 people
- The modules can be combined into multi-car trains, up to 4 cars
- This works out to a total of 1000 people per train
- Maximum carrying capacity is 30 000 people per direction per hour (I guess they are assuming headways of 2 min)
- Floor of cars are about 8" off the ground
- Can operate wirelessly through induction power transfer
- A few trains are currently using the induction transfer system, as are new buses in Montreal. Some prototypes for cars and trucks are in the works

So, wow. I never knew these things could actually be combined to be up to 1000 people. That is pretty massive.

As a comparison what would the capacity numbers for a similar length (meters) C-train be?

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Cage

It can only hinder:
- McIvor is the judge and jury for deciding which PROVINCIAL projects move forward. That he is also the local MLA means there is no-one in caucus to advocate for SELRT funding above all other projects.
- IF SELRT goes ahead, Edmonton is going to demand their second LRT line (Downtown to Millwoods) is given equal treatment. Costs to the provincial government would explode as everyone gets in line for special treatment (e.g. Ft Mac will want Hwy 63 twinned, GP and NW AB is going to want Hwy 43 twinned, etc.).

That was my concern also. He will probably keep at arms length as not to appear to give favourable treatment to his own ward. But the flipside of the coin is that he knows more than anyone how badly it's needed. If the economy really takes off again I can see the province issuing another round of green trip funding.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by kap384

Where on Stephen Ave?

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

As a comparison what would the capacity numbers for a similar length (meters) C-train be?

On Centre street, right beside the Convention Centre.

Our current Siemens SD160s we use (the newest ones IIRC) can hold 200-226 people per car, so slightly less. So technically a 4 car consist will hold about 100 people more in the Bombardier low-floor.

Street-running LRT on Centre Street anyone? Costs would be reduced about 80% from a subway (just making this up of course, but it would be substantial).

[kap384]

Thanks!

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by fusili

On Centre street, right beside the Convention Centre.

Our current Siemens SD160s we use (the newest ones IIRC) can hold 200-226 people per car, so slightly less. So technically a 4 car consist will hold about 100 people more in the Bombardier low-floor.

Street-running LRT on Centre Street anyone? Costs would be reduced about 80% from a subway (just making this up of course, but it would be substantial).

Considering the narrowness of the car, I'm assuming that it would have to be significantly longer than the LRVs we have now in order to have a higher capacity.

I'm guessing that Bombardier is overstating the capacity numbers.

[Elbownian]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Considering the narrowness of the car, I'm assuming that it would have to be significantly longer than the LRVs we have now in order to have a higher capacity.

Pretty sure the Freedom is almost exactly the same width as an SD-160. The height of the seat backs makes it appear narrower than it actually is.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Considering the narrowness of the car, I'm assuming that it would have to be significantly longer than the LRVs we have now in order to have a higher capacity.

I'm guessing that Bombardier is overstating the capacity numbers.

The high capacity ones are 40m a car no?

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The high capacity ones are 40m a car no?

Just looking at the brochure now on Bombardier's website, the 5 module cars that have a capacity of 251 are 30.8 long. An SD160 is 24.8m long. They are similar in width.

A 4 vehicle flexity would be as long as a five vehicle SD160.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

He will probably keep at arms length as not to appear to give favourable treatment to his own ward. But the flipside of the coin is that he knows more than anyone how badly it's needed.

Being arms length and and the appearance of inpropriety are one factor, but I am more concerned about his ability to act as a champion for the electoral district. While I disagree with his position, I very much admire the work Jim Stevenson did for the airport tunnel, he was a true advocate for the ward most affected by the Tunnel. I doubt McIvor could do the same thing because he is the Transport Minister.

Let's put it this way, pretend there is an open house on the SE LRT, Ric might as well have another engagment come up because no way could he attend the open house. However his riding of Calgary-Hays is the electoral district most impacted by SELRT. Other ridings pale in comparison. Who else among cabinet gets the Herald/Sun quote advocating the SELRT?

So how do the SELRT proponents overcome this obsticle. My suggestion would be to look to one of the surrounding MLAs to be the advocate. THe Surrounding MLAs are Rick Fraser (Cgy SE), Jonathan Denis (Cgy - Acadia), Wayne Cao (Cgy - Fort). Denis is also in cabinet and his experience does not lean towards transportation or development advocate. If its experience that is required, Wayne Cao could take up the charge for SELRT.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Just looking at the brochure now on Bombardier's website, the 5 module cars that have a capacity of 251 are 30.8 long. An SD160 is 24.8m long. They are similar in width.

A 4 vehicle flexity would be as long as a five vehicle SD160.

I think the cars would be a lot better if all the seating was aisle facing. The aisles just end up being too narrow where there are two seats on either side. And yeah, they are really long cars.

[Innersoul1]

Don't know if you guys have seen this guys' videos on YouTube. But talk about dedication. He has videographer numerous city routes.

• Video Link

[floobie]

I had a look at the Flexity car on my way home. Seemed fairly nice overall. Pretty roomy. Low floor was pretty cool. The hand-holds were well distributed, unlike the newest of the SD160s. But, I would make a few tweaks. I didn't care for the seating arrangement, though the seats themselves were pretty comfortable. I prefer the perimeter seating (provided the individual seats are sufficiently wide so I don't constantly get sandwiched between two fat people who's girth invades onto half of my seat). Also, the articulating bit seemed sub-optimal to me. What's nice on our current cars is that the wall of the articulating portion is indeed just a wall that people can easily and comfortably lean against. On the Flexity, it's nothing but accordion stuff, rendering the surface (presumably) unsuitable for leaning.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Cage

Being arms length and and the appearance of inpropriety are one factor, but I am more concerned about his ability to act as a champion for the electoral district. While I disagree with his position, I very much admire the work Jim Stevenson did for the airport tunnel, he was a true advocate for the ward most affected by the Tunnel. I doubt McIvor could do the same thing because he is the Transport Minister.

Let's put it this way, pretend there is an open house on the SE LRT, Ric might as well have another engagment come up because no way could he attend the open house. However his riding of Calgary-Hays is the electoral district most impacted by SELRT. Other ridings pale in comparison. Who else among cabinet gets the Herald/Sun quote advocating the SELRT?

So how do the SELRT proponents overcome this obsticle. My suggestion would be to look to one of the surrounding MLAs to be the advocate. THe Surrounding MLAs are Rick Fraser (Cgy SE), Jonathan Denis (Cgy - Acadia), Wayne Cao (Cgy - Fort). Denis is also in cabinet and his experience does not lean towards transportation or development advocate. If its experience that is required, Wayne Cao could take up the charge for SELRT.

All that matters for continued LRT expansion is money and there isn't a pot of money not being spent that could be spent on LRT with the right advocacy. There is a wide policy consensus in this province that continued LRT expansion is a good thing. Unlike in other provinces.

Allocations of grants re: priorities is pretty much 100% driven by city council, and grant amounts except for green trip and the gas tax transfer are done via a formula.

[5seconds]

Interesting article, Nenshi ponders if the SE LRT should be built first, or NC LRT.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Nenshi+unsure+southeast+should+priority/6963848/story.html

A bold quote from the mayor of such a sprawling city: ""Even a full LRT would maybe shave 10 to 15 minutes off that time," he told radio host Angela Kokott. "So one thing people have to realize is that when they make the choice of where they're living, sometimes it's just really far. And that southeast corner of the city is really far."

and this: ""The real question we have to address is: Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi said.

[RyLucky]

Please let me remind you that this is the same Ric McIvor who believes dandelions are a threat to public safety. http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1977816711
His opinions come from nowhere. When he lost the mayor's race, his campaign manager said “We didn’t have the resources our competitors [Nenshi] had. They are like the New York Yankees.” In reality McIvor had more financial resources than any of his competitors. Ultimately, he is a fiscal conservative and a highway man. The SELRT takes a major backseat to Highway 63, the ring road, and a handful of other highway projects. Ric McIvor believes it is the private sector's responsibility to build the SELRT: "Right now, with the province and feds in deficit and the city having multiple capital demands, it only makes sense to look to the only other possible source of funding -- the private sector," said McIver.

As you can probably tell, I think McIvor is the wrong man for the job. That said, "McIvor Fire" was one of the better salsas at the Kensington Sun & Salsa Fest. Maybe he would be better suited for running a pub or restaurant.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/McIver...ry+Hays/6506048/story.html#ixzz21AuWQhCS
http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2009/12/14/12145571-sun.html

[Cage]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Nenshi+unsure+southeast+should+priority/6963848/story.html

A bold quote from the mayor of such a sprawling city: ""Even a full LRT would maybe shave 10 to 15 minutes off that time," he told radio host Angela Kokott. "So one thing people have to realize is that when they make the choice of where they're living, sometimes it's just really far. And that southeast corner of the city is really far."

and this: ""The real question we have to address is: Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi said.

I think I am starting to like this Nenshi guy. If he keeps up with quotes like the above bolded portions, I just might vote for Nenshi next year.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Interesting article, Nenshi ponders if the SE LRT should be built first, or NC LRT.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Nenshi+unsure+southeast+should+priority/6963848/story.html

A bold quote from the mayor of such a sprawling city: ""Even a full LRT would maybe shave 10 to 15 minutes off that time," he told radio host Angela Kokott. "So one thing people have to realize is that when they make the choice of where they're living, sometimes it's just really far. And that southeast corner of the city is really far."

and this: ""The real question we have to address is: Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi said.

Well that pretty much sums up which line he thinks should be built first. I'm sorry but that's horseshit! You mean to tell me that the MASSIVE workforce that is employed in the foothills industrial park, many of whom are immigrants or lower income workers who rely on substandard bus service don't deserve rail transit? The North will have 3 lines if NCLRT is built whereas the south will only have 1 (I'm sorry but I don't count the West line as part of the south). If Nenshi pushes for the North line first I'm not voting for him again.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Well that pretty much sums up which line he thinks should be built first. I'm sorry but that's horseshit! You mean to tell me that the MASSIVE workforce that is employed in the foothills industrial park, many of whom are immigrants or lower income workers who rely on substandard bus service don't deserve rail transit? The North will have 3 lines if NCLRT is built whereas the south will only have 1 (I'm sorry but I don't count the West line as part of the south). If Nenshi pushes for the North line first I'm not voting for him again.

I think it's fair to say at this point he is only asking the question, not answering it. I don't mind the question being asked, especially if we are in a position to not be able to fund the SE LRT for decades, but maybe the NCLRT sooner (not sure if this is true however)

Will the Foothills industrial area be a large draw for transit users? I'm curious about travel patterns in this area (not that familiar with it). I assumed that the line be frequented more by people who live, rather than work, in the SE, but not sure about that at all.

Ultimately I think that getting new people onto transit might be a better priority than increasing the transit experience for existing users, simply from an infrastructure perspective. Less private vehicles entering downtown from any direction has to be a better use of money.