ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[TarHeelJ]

I really hope you're wrong...but it sounds like you know what you're talking about.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by cabasse

holy shit at all the dissent on a wsj article about this. again, i agree, it probably won't pass. your breakdown of the reasons is pretty well thought-out also, simms3.

I don't think it's going to pass either, and when it fails, I am probably going to start looking for a new job in a more progressive city. I've been it Atlanta since 1996 and can't spent anymore time waiting to Atlanta to "arrive," which, in my mind, means better intown transit.

In an ideal world, the City of Atlanta would generate revenues for the intown transit on their own when the TIA fails. Connect Atlanta proposed a parking tax that could generate hundreds of millions of dollars for transit - far more, over the long run than the TIA - but it went nowhere. Similarly, prior to the TIGER grant award, an annual assessment for all properties along the proposed streetcar failed, despite the fact that many of my downtown neighbors pay under $100 per year in property taxes because values have fallen so much.

People just don't seem to realize that, if you want nice things and quality of life, you've got to pay for it.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by Terminus

I don't think it's going to pass either, and when it fails, I am probably going to start looking for a new job in a more progressive city. I've been it Atlanta since 1996 and can't spent anymore time waiting to Atlanta to "arrive," which, in my mind, means better intown transit.

In an ideal world, the City of Atlanta would generate revenues for the intown transit on their own when the TIA fails. Connect Atlanta proposed a parking tax that could generate hundreds of millions of dollars for transit - far more, over the long run than the TIA - but it went nowhere. Similarly, prior to the TIGER grant award, an annual assessment for all properties along the proposed streetcar failed, despite the fact that many of my downtown neighbors pay under $100 per year in property taxes because values have fallen so much.

People just don't seem to realize that, if you want nice things and quality of life, you've got to pay for it.

Thank you! My sentiments, exactly. I love Atlanta and think that the city has so much potential, but that's one of the reasons that some of my friends and I decided to leave for more progressive cities. There are many others in the city that think this way, as well. There are cities, such as Charlotte, that are waiting to pick up the gauntlet if Atlanta continues to rest on its' laurals.

[simms3_redux]

^^^If I didn't have such an awesome job now I would definitely be looking around, too. At least my job allows me to travel to other more progressive cities and experience what a real city is supposed to be like for a day or a few at a time.

I think the biggest problem with Atlanta is how spread out the governance of "Metro Atlanta" is. 28 counties? Pushing 100 independent municipalities? 8,000 square miles?? Really????

As progressive as the city is in many areas, the state/counties fucked it up when they allowed such uncontrolled growth over several decades on an unprecedented scale in the world. The result? The most disjointed metro in the country. Some fuck in Cherokee County could care less about his fellow metro Atlanta fuck down in Spalding County, 100+ miles away. And neither gives a flying fuck about anyone in the actual City of Atlanta.

I'm at the point where I get personally offended when someone from Kennesaw or Cherokee County or Gainesville or Conyers says they're from Atlanta. Shut the fuck up, you live 30-80 miles outside of the city and you don't pay city taxes, you don't support city services, you didn't go to Atlanta Public Schools or any of the private schools in the city, and the only time you occasionally come in is with your backward baseball cap or your croakies to go to Crescent St bars or a Braves game. WTF get outa here. It's your people, your stupid parents who are to blame for our predicament.

I have never lived in a suburb anywhere, neither have my parents. It's not in my families' genes to desire to live in some boring stucco house in a gated community somewhere.

I also get offended at the Alpharetta people. They always talk about money and how wealthy it is up there. Come on you freakin' nouveau riche dolts, Alpharetta is a new money suburb just like hundreds of others across the country. It's NOTHING SPECIAL and is SPRAWL. Your big low-quality brick house next to all the other brick houses and tan stucco houses does not impress me one bit; in fact it makes me want to puke. Your beamer bought on credit so your parents could pull you into their "keeping up with the other living on credit Jones" scheme also does not impress me.

I welcome any and all suburbanites who want to move in, but please do not bring your suburban ways/habits with you. We are trying desperately to bloom into a full blown city here, not some stereotype of sprawl.

Ok my rant against suburbanites is dones.

[DonTallPaul]

Originally Posted by Terminus

I don't think it's going to pass either, and when it fails, I am probably going to start looking for a new job in a more progressive city. I've been it Atlanta since 1996 and can't spent anymore time waiting to Atlanta to "arrive," which, in my mind, means better intown transit.

I've been thinking along these lines as well. I have a company with employees so it won't be easy to pack it up and move, but we are opening offices in other cities.

I do think although there is a ground swell in the outer burbs against it - I find very few people really know much about it even if they've heard of it. My company would be within walking distance of a station on the Emory line if this passes - which means many of my employees would benefit from the passage, yet I'm the only one who tell them about it.

I have my beefs with this - namely as a Fulton resident I don't like the idea of having to pay twice (MARTA + TIA), some poor choices in transit IMHO, etc. But ultimately, I think both the road and transit projects are a need (I do like the balance that it's not all transit, not all roads, and even pedestrian projects).

[ATLaffinity]

It's Untie Atlanta. It's TSplost. It's TIA.

Yeah, I see booths at Streets Alive. Not seeing much press beyond that.

Has the mayor said anything?

Are the Braves really pushing it? The Aquarium? Etc.

Everyone is on board but it doesn't feel like there's been much of a push. Ok. I see that billboard. That's about it.

But it just might not matter given the demographic of this MSA.

[scania]

I do think we should keep in mind that most of the establishments are greatly supported by people who live in the suburbs. Some of these restaurants that are in the city would not stand a chance of survival if it was mainly supported by locals that live in the immediate areas.

[simms3_redux]

Scania, you're actually wrong there. I do have some insight into this and I do know that the intown restaurant scene is mainly supported by intown residents. I know this indirectly through my job. I also know that funding for Atlanta's cultural institutions like the High, Woodruff and even Grady come almost entirely from within the city and definitely within the city+immediate areas. (the only counties that support Grady are Fulton and Dekalb of course, but very few know just what an impact Grady has on the whole region, once again suburbanites piggy backing off the two central counties)

Suburbanites are good for filling office buildings, shopping trips to Lenox, trashing the Hooch in the summer/on holidays, patronizing clubs, and boosting attendance at Braves/Falcons games and at tourist attractions like the Aquarium (which I as a city resident boycott due to the many unnecessary deaths of rare aquatic animals there).

When your drive into the city is 30+ miles and close to an hour or more, of course you're not going to be coming in that much unless you have to for work or if you have a city pad to come to on the weekends (a very select few do). You are also more than likely a conservative republican, and you have a much higher likelihood of viewing Atlanta as the "necessary evil" of the state/your region. You probably tell jokes about MARTA, you sure as hell don't pay for it and you live in an area that vehemently does not wish to support MARTA, etc.

"you" as in figuratively of course

[simms3_redux]

Keep in mind that Atlanta is ~8% of the population of metro Atlanta. Fulton+Dekalb is 30%, and much of Fulton and Dekalb are suburban in nature. When you think about Atlanta, you must realize the city limits are ~1.5% of the land area of the metro and the urban population is probably about 12-14% of the total. The balance is just wayyyy off here.

Support for the vital services of the region (MARTA, Grady, even the big donors for the universities and cultural institutions) comes from that ~1.5% of land area and that 12-14% of the population. Taxes on "average" residents in Atlanta are twice what they are for most suburbanites, and we already pay a penny or MARTA. Many of us are willing to pay 2 pennies, even if much of that will go to solve intersections 20-50 miles away, we're just hoping that those 20-50 miles away are also willing to start stepping up support for their region for the first time.

[jtwong]

Doesn't this surburban rant miss the point. Shouldn't the discussion be about how we can get the surburbs tied into the transit system. Other "progressive" cities, for example, have suburbs that resemble ours but are much more integrated into the transit system. Take Chicago. You can easily communte from naperville and beyond by train. Rather than curse Alparetta, shouldnt we be building a vision to create a network to reach those places? Unless you plan to wall of the city from the barbarians, it's better to try to co-opt them to accomplish your goals. So the suburbs don't want rail? Let them sit in traffic. They will eventually change their mind. Meanwile, maybe Fulton/Dekalb need to devise a better plan and concenrate on their needs.

[L41A]

Atlanta does its best when the state of Georgia gets out of its way or allows it to. (State government seemingly does not want to assist Atlanta in anything it aspires to do - so at least move out the way). I was pleasantly surprised when the state legislature passed the legislation to allow the Transportation Referendum(TIA). However that surprised was tempered when I saw that counties like Cherokee and Fayette included in the Atlanta region. I would have like to have seen the Atlanta region more like GDOT District of Metro Atlanta which is basically 5 counties.

I have lived in Atlanta since the 1980's but am a Georgia native; and Atlanta has always been a big idea, we can do whatever we want type place. Even in the 1950-60s and before, Atlanta had this notion. Almost whatever was conceived, Atlanta won (MARTA in the 1970s, freeway expansions, MARTA expansions, Democratic National Convention in the 1980s, the Olympics, Super Bowls, conventions, ATL airport expansions, etc). However, it does seem that in the last decade or so - that big idea, aspiring can do spirit that is the Atlanta that I know has waned.

I do hope the TIA passes. It does have its faults but we must not do anything. But if it doesn't passes, it may not be such a bad thing either especially if it allows the state of Georgia legislature to get out of Atlanta's way.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by jtwong

Doesn't this surburban rant miss the point. Shouldn't the discussion be about how we can get the surburbs tied into the transit system. Other "progressive" cities, for example, have suburbs that resemble ours but are much more integrated into the transit system. Take Chicago. You can easily communte from naperville and beyond by train. Rather than curse Alparetta, shouldnt we be building a vision to create a network to reach those places? Unless you plan to wall of the city from the barbarians, it's better to try to co-opt them to accomplish your goals. So the suburbs don't want rail? Let them sit in traffic. They will eventually change their mind. Meanwile, maybe Fulton/Dekalb need to devise a better plan and concenrate on their needs.

Yes, it's best to include all Atlantans as part of the city...I certainly don't believe that I'm better than someone just because of where I live, and I know better than to lump all of suburbia into one general disgusting lump. That's never a smart thing to do. Isn't open-mindedness a hallmark of liberal thinking?

I do agree that if TSPLOST doesn't pass then Fulton and Dekalb will have to figure out something on their own...but I would never abandon ship over this. Other cities are having bigtime troubles funding transit as well...some people hold up Charlotte as an example of progressive transit, but there is major trouble with expansion plans there.

I just remain hopeful that enough people will see the light and vote for Atlanta's future.

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Scania, you're actually wrong there. I do have some insight into this and I do know that the intown restaurant scene is mainly supported by intown residents. I know this indirectly through my job. I also know that funding for Atlanta's cultural institutions like the High, Woodruff and even Grady come almost entirely from within the city and definitely within the city+immediate areas. (the only counties that support Grady are Fulton and Dekalb of course, but very few know just what an impact Grady has on the whole region, once again suburbanites piggy backing off the two central counties)

Suburbanites are good for filling office buildings, shopping trips to Lenox, trashing the Hooch in the summer/on holidays, patronizing clubs, and boosting attendance at Braves/Falcons games and at tourist attractions like the Aquarium (which I as a city resident boycott due to the many unnecessary deaths of rare aquatic animals there).

When your drive into the city is 30+ miles and close to an hour or more, of course you're not going to be coming in that much unless you have to for work or if you have a city pad to come to on the weekends (a very select few do). You are also more than likely a conservative republican, and you have a much higher likelihood of viewing Atlanta as the "necessary evil" of the state/your region. You probably tell jokes about MARTA, you sure as hell don't pay for it and you live in an area that vehemently does not wish to support MARTA, etc.

"you" as in figuratively of course

I'm not sure why you have so much hate towards the suburbs. Also, your statements is like saying that everyone that lives in the city live from check to check, and that it is full of black gays that work in retail, restaurants, or hotels, that can't barely afford where they live...I made my initial statement based off of RA Sushi doing a 3 week survey of their customers and 73% were people who did not live in the city and the owner of Steele said that most of the customers were actually from the burbs.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by scania

I'm not sure why you have so much hate towards the suburbs. Also, your statements is like saying that everyone that lives in the city live from check to check, and that it is full of black gays that work in retail, restaurants, or hotels, that can't barely afford where they live...I made my initial statement based off of RA Sushi doing a 3 week survey of their customers and 73% were people who did not live in the city and the owner of Steele said that most of the customers were actually from the burbs.

I know! I don't understand the demonization of everyone who doesn't live like or agree with me.

You could probably ask any in-town merchant about support from suburban residents...I'm sure they are very much in favor of it. The huge restaurant and retail scene in Atlanta wouldn't survive if the majority of customers were city of Atlanta residents.

[ATLaffinity]

I find it hard to believe that "it" restaurants aren't mostly supported by Intown money and business travelers.

So Miller Union or The Lawrence are dependent on people in Cumming or Peachtree City? I could see lunch crowds being commuters.

I don't hate the suburbs. That said, they have zero interest in the well being of the city. If they want to spend their life in a car, more power to them. I just hope Atlanta continues to infill.

It's too bad so many suburbanites will decide the fate of the TIA.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

It's too bad so many suburbanites will decide the fate of the TIA.

That's my frustration. I also think the way this has been publicized nationally and shed light on Atlanta's traffic problem (or perception of) will set Atlanta up for a very rough time attracting business if it fails.

A) Other cities actually have worse traffic, but everyone thinks Atlanta has the worst traffic.

B) This has been publicized as the solution and the one and only chance, and that is not exactly too far off from the truth. If it doesn't pass, business leaders around the country may think Atlanta's traffic will thus never be solved.

We're in dangerous territory, in my opinion. Atlanta just shut down a ton more schools, and the same thing is happening in other counties. There is no federal money for these fixes (and the new bill passed through Congress is really nothing to be excited about), and there is certainly no money for transportation without raising some sort of tax.

Atlanta's problem is not that there are suburbs, it is that suburbs are the vast majority of people, land and the source of many of the region's biggest problems. The city of Atlanta itself does not have a traffic problem and commute times aren't terrible. The metro has a problem, and it is almost exclusively out in the burbs. Yet the metro won't solve the problems and Atlanta as a city and the hub of the region continues to foot the bill for nearly everything. The level of unfairness in metro Atlanta is notably more severe than in other metros, and that is the frustrating part.

City of Atlanta = 1.5% of metro land area
City of Atlanta = 8.0% of metro population
Fulton + Dekalb, the 2 heavy lifting counties = ~9.9% of metro land area
Fulton + Dekalb = 30.8% of metro population

There are 28 counties in the MSA and 33 counties in the CSA.
There are 86 incorporated cities in the CSA.

Metro Atlanta is literally larger than 7, almost 10 states. I think the CSA is larger than 9 states.

Looking at the 10 counties that will vote:

County Population Land Area % Total Population % Total Land Area

Cherokee 214,346 424 5.22% 14.19%
Clayton 259,424 143 6.32% 4.78%
Cobb 688,078 340 16.75% 11.39%
Dekalb 691,893 268 16.84% 8.98%
Douglas 132,403 199 3.22% 6.67%
Fayette 106,567 197 2.59% 6.60%
South Fulton 520,581 329 12.67% 11.01%
North Fulton 400,000 200 9.74% 6.70%
Gwinnett 805,321 433 19.60% 14.49%
Henry 203,922 323 4.96% 10.81%
Rockdale 85,215 131 2.07% 4.38%

Total 4,107,750 2,985


Then factor in the city of Atlanta:

420,003 132 10.22% 4.41%

10% of the population and 4% of the land area of the 10 voting counties.

The city is really at the mercy of the metro here, when the city is in fact the hub that holds all the spokes together.

[simms3_redux]

Thankfully anti-transit Coweta, and other suburban counties such as Newton, Fayette, Spaulding, and Paulding are not a part of this. 10 counties for 2,985 sq. mi. is not a terrible thing, but to think the city of Atlanta is literally such a tiny part of that area is hard to wrap my mind around, and to think of everything the tiny city is able to support without the help of nearly 90% of the rest of the region...

[GThomas]

Anyone with info on either of these?

[rds989]

Maybe this will hearten you folks re: SPLOST. Or maybe not.

I live in southern Roswell in a (gorgeous, to my mind) neighborhood near the river, although I suppose it is of the type you all love to hate. I'm 37, conservative republican, 3 kids under 10, etc. I commute to midtown on 400 (from exit 6) every weekday.

My wife and I will be voting for SPLOST with enthusiasm, and so will most people in my area. My view is that the proposed tax is (1) reasonable, (2) targeted to important local needs, and (3) neither permanent nor easily repurposed to a politically-oriented slushfund operated by people I don't agree with.

So that's a data point for you. Also, I've been to RA with my wife and we do support in-town restaurants etc. Empire State South is a particular favorite.

[(four 0 four)]

Originally Posted by GThomas

Anyone with info on either of these?

Currently 2520 Peachtree is a 2 story red-brick building just north of where Lindbergh deadends on Peachtree. I think it was 2-3 years ago that the condo owners tried to organize and sell to a devoloper. It got very close to the closing date before it fell apart. I would be surprised if it gets put back together any time soon.