DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bunt_q]

Notice those pictures are all taken from 500 feet back. If you're standing underneath it, those design elements count for nothing.

[Cirrus]

Oh I totally agree, it's an apples-and-oranges situation in any number of ways. A couple of overpasses spanning a highway that people pass in cars at 70 mph is totally different than an el through a dense city grid with a lot of pedestrians below.

But if we're talking about beautification funding and not technical difficulties, well, that money had to come from somewhere.

I can think of some ways where an el with limited visibility and attractive mitigating cladding might be acceptable in Denver. How about replacing the Stout/California couplet with an el in the alley between Champa and Stout? That would allow you to move grade-separated through the heart of downtown. You'd eliminate a huge bottleneck on capacity, and would be able to run longer trains closer together throughout the whole system.

Lots of complications, to be sure. We might need 2 alleys to do it, we'd cross the Mall, and at some point we'd need at least a couple of blocks of streets to cover for a turnaround. But there's no doubt that compared to a traditional el on top of an arterial street with pylons running down the median, this sort of arrangement would be much easier to stomach, would block much less light, and would be much easier to spruce up with some relatively affordable cladding at key intersection crossings.

After all that a subway might be easier and maybe even cheaper. And of course, so far we don't even need the separation. I am not saying this idea is necessarily a winner. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's true that a short el of a mile or 2 in length through downtown would have to be as obtrusive as the one in Honolulu, and that if we really thought one were necessary we might be able to find ways to minimize its eyesore factor enough to be politically acceptable.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Okay let's quit looking at trains from the 1910s. Let's look at renderings from the 2010s. This is what elevated rail means today. And forget any talk of doing it better - it's already a $5 billion project - this is what we'd get.

First a before/after from the EIS:





A few more from Honolulu Weekly (and the one with the graffiti added, that was added by the AIA chapter... Architects leading the fight against rail, haha.). Anyways:









So yeah... I think we have better options in Denver. I can't think of a single instance where this would be acceptable.

I might add that

A) Hawaii is a lot closer to East Asia, and many who live there maintain real time communication with friends and relatives in Japan, Korea, and, China. Information concerning architecture, transportation design, etc., arrives via the internet to people who have visited Tokyo, Seoul, Shanghai, yada yada. Honolulu, transportation wise, at least, is a bit more literate than Denver.

B) The "Rock" is very small. Oahu's acreage, number wise, is less than the square miles in Alaska. Metro-Denver covers about 4 times the area of the Rock.

No, the folks in Honolulu are going to build something that will work rather well (H1 vs c470)

We won't as we, through graft and corruption, hastily builtup all possible unobstructed access routes into Lodo for our usual, unenlightened short term gain. Oh well...............

I agree with we would not find any instance that this would be "acceptable." Instead, we will continue building systems that reflect our prepondorate belief that Denver is the center of world transit design. "Go Broncos!"

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Honolulu, transportation wise, at least, is a bit more literate than Denver.

Wizened, my friend, I normally enjoy your cynicism, but on this one you're flat wrong. I see where you're coming from, your assumptions make sense... Except that they're wrong in this case.

The discussion in Honolulu has been downright primitive. I would say early-90s mainland, except with some uniquely Hawaiian quirks. And the discussion has been dominated by some real odd ducks. Absolutely zero forward-thinking ambitious Asian influence, though.

I would say the main players are:

A. Highways! (these exist everywhere)
B. The better bus crowd. (Some of these are group A in disguise, but others are legit - the Honolulu bus system is quite good, works well for many many people, and I think there are some legitimate concerns that the bus system will suffer as attention shifts to a commuter/west Oahu development-focused and very expensive rail line).
C. The views crowd. (Led by the American institute of architects, but sometimes embraced by both groups A and B, these people want at-grade light rail. They've been the most influential opposition, which is why group D has focused so much attention on showing LRT-car crashes, etc. An odd debate between rail technologies that I haven't seen played out so publicly and prominently anyplace else)
D. The grade separated crowd. (Led by former mayor Mufi, these people argue the island needs whatever transit is most competitive, at whatever cost. As below grade isn't really an option, Mufi led the charge for the elevated/automated state of the art system.). These guys won because double-stacking the highway was a disaster, there is no space for any other road/bus option with the capacity needed, and at-grade LRT was just too dang slow from the empty fields of west Oahu that will absorb almost all of the island's future growth.

Anyways, this is the wrong place for this (there isn't really a right place on this forum)... But that's a far cry from the discussion going on in any major Asian city. The only commonality is the word "Asian."

Apologies for typos. On phone.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Wizened, my friend, I normally enjoy your cynicism, but on this one you're flat wrong. I see where you're coming from, your assumptions make sense... Except that they're wrong in this case.

The discussion in Honolulu has been downright primitive. I would say early-90s mainland, except with some uniquely Hawaiian quirks. And the discussion has been dominated by some real odd ducks. Absolutely zero forward-thinking ambitious Asian influence, though.

I respectfully disagree.

Look at our debates over the last 30 years about DIA, TRex, and, Fastracks. Look at how little public disagreement was reflected in changes in the final designs. No, the radio jockeys, and, the newspapers did not address public needs concerning transportation as a rule, rather they tended to push what already was planned behind 'closed doors.' In general the politicians, RTD power players, and their backers had the answers before the 'public' became 'involved' Most public meetings were discussions "after the design fact." Too often, the 'public' has been treated like cows who would lead their fellow cows after indoctrination in some large scale "Transportation Alliance."

We could have used a few more "odd ducks"....

[SnyderBock]

That's absolutely not true at all. The final designs were generated after an EIS study, which heavily leaned on public input, to determine the final design and environmental enhancements. If you're arguing that after this process was complete, other people who did not bother to involve themselves in the EIS process (or who were nothing more than the vocal minority), tried to step in a day late and dollar short and change the final design. Well then yes, you're correct. That's too bad. These people were mostly opposed to transit investment in the first place and simply waited until 11 o'clock, as a last ditch effort to try and derail the project altogether.

[bunt_q]

Yeah, I'm not sure where you've been, there was, if anything, too much public involvement. The public, not the powers-who-be, created that Frankenstein's Monster in the US 36 corridor.

There were certainly instances when the public was ignored, but that's true in any project, mostly because the public has no concept of cost. But they sure understand the notion of "taxpayer's rights" - hence the straightjacket we know as TABOR. If you're going to tie officials' hand, then you should expect barely legible scribbles in the final design.

If the public has been treated like cows it's because the public has voted like cows. Government bad...taxes bad...must...stop...government...MOOO.

[Cirrus]

Just for the sake of comparison, this is an elevated section of Metrorail currently under construction in Virginia.


Image by John Cambron.

[bunt_q]

That looks about right. And it would be terrible in Central Denver (or Central anywhere, for that matter). I'm sure it can be accommodated just fine in Northern Virginia. Although, I would think there has to be portions of that - through Tysons, or whatever - where reasonable folks would be less-than-thrilled about the elevated structure.

[EngiNerd]

They also have trees to hide it...which we don't. In central Denver though, just hideous.

[bunt_q]

Here we go. Some more typical RTD. Only one working TVM (still cash only and a slow as hell dot matrix printer). At last count the line was 18 people deep. Time to purchase ticket: about 20 minutes. Current headways: 15 min.





In what transit universe is this acceptable?

On the bright side, the Medici Communities TOD project site at Evans is a pile of rubble!



Rendering from rds's site: http://www.denver-cityscape.com/images/EvansStationLofts-31312.jpg

[Cirrus]

Jesus.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

In what transit universe is this acceptable?

On the bright side, the Medici Communities TOD project site at Evans is a pile of rubble!



Rendering from rds's site: http://www.denver-cityscape.com/images/EvansStationLofts-31312.jpg

Here is a somewhat better rendering of the Evans Station Lofts:

[Octavian]

Here's some good news. To be completed by 2015:

The Regional Transportation District’s staff on Tuesday recommended the board consider signing a contract with Kiewit Infrastructure Co. to build the I-225 light-rail line, part of the massive FasTracks project, between Parker Road and Interstate 70.

The company in March proposed building the 10.5-mile line for $350 million via a firm, fixed-price contract that envisioned construction ending in November 2015, RTD General Manager Phil Washington said Tuesday.

RTD’S CFO, Terry Howerter, said RTD can pay for the line by issuing between $350 million and $500 million in bonds, to be repaid via existing sales-tax revenues. RTD originally estimated the I-225 line would cost about $538 million, including the agency’s internal costs.

“We don’t need to go to the voters. We can do this within our own financing,” Washington said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2...nds-kiewits-plan-for-i-225.html?page=all

Another link from the Denver Post: http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21002522/rtd-recommends-kiewit-infrastructure-finish-aurora-light-rail

Presentation to RTD Board: http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/uploads/main/2-I-225_Proposal_Recommendation_7-3-12.pdf

[bunt_q]

That's great news. Interesting that there's no DBOM contemplated here. The Kiewit/AECOM team just says flat out that they can do it for $188m cheaper than RTD's estimates.

EDIT: On the other hand, Kiewit just cut another half million or so people out of the ranks of those who have any personal interest in supporting a second Fastracks vote. North metro and US 36, all that's left (minus a few extensions)? That pot needs some sweetening. I can think of a few ideas that might help...

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

That's great news. Interesting that there's no DBOM contemplated here. The Kiewit/AECOM team just says flat out that they can do it for $188m cheaper than RTD's estimates.

EDIT: On the other hand, Kiewit just cut another half million or so people out of the ranks of those who have any personal interest in supporting a second Fastracks vote. North metro and US 36, all that's left (minus a few extensions)? That pot needs some sweetening. I can think of a few ideas that might help...

Hey, at least it's another piece of Fastracks that will be built in a timely manner after all! I think it's fantastic that Kiewit and their team came to the table with such a plan, and I also think it shows that RTD's definitely ready and willing to seriously consider any and all reasonable alternatives so long as the system gets (at least mostly) completed. Frankly, as long as the BRT does get out to Boulder, I could give a damn about the rail connection!

Maybe there will be another company willing to work on the North line up towards Thornton, Northglenn, etc...? That has a better chance of such a proposal or a PPP than the NW line, no doubt about it.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[trubador]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Maybe there will be another company willing to work on the North line up towards Thornton, Northglenn, etc...? That has a better chance of such a proposal or a PPP than the NW line, no doubt about it.

Aaron (Glowrock)

does RTD already own the ROW on 36 and I-25 north? If they do, then they really need to look at the cost of routing the rail next to these highways instead of paying the ransom that BNSF is suggesting

[EngiNerd]

For US36, I think there was something about if they used the Highway ROW, the grades up the hill between McCaslin Blvd and Cherryvale Rd. could not be done without elevating the rail to lessen the slope...and so they used the ROW from the freight rail tracks which bypasses that hill.

[SnyderBock]

Right. Perhaps now, elevating that small stretch to lessen the slope, might cost less than $1.7 billion+? Just a thought. $1.7 billion will build a lot of grade-seperate, fully electrified EMU.

[mr1138]

Sadly I suspect that the problem at this point is that the US36 BRT project is probably almost fully designed and about to begin construction. I suspect that the powers that be would rather stick their fingers in their ears and pretend like rail is simply not an option for the US36 corridor, because they'd rather not go back to the drawing board at this point.