DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

Since I'm in a sharing-things-from-other-places mood, I'll also share some info on Seattle's downtown subway, which is a perfect model for Denver. I mean perfect.

The subway is 1.3 miles long, running below downtown Seattle. It has 3 true subway stations, plus a 4th station that is in a trench but open air, and a 5th that's on the surface but connected at one end to the subway. If it were Denver, it would be exactly analogous to a subway connecting Union Station with Civic Center Station, with 3 stations in between.

The other super cool thing about it is that it carries both buses and light rail trains. This would also be freaking perfect for Denver, since BRT is part of FasTracks, and since buses on 16th Street are the core of Denver's transit system. In Seattle, you always have to pay to get on the light rail, but if you are entering the bus from one of the subway stations then it is a free ride. So buses in the subway serve the same function there as the 16th Street Shuttle serves in Denver. Except it's actually better, because you don't have to transfer; if you're riding the bus in from the neighborhoods, it just slips into the subway when it gets downtown.

Imagine light rail entering the subway from Union Station and running to Civic Center, while simultaneously all buses from the Colfax and Broadway lines enter the same subway and run to Union Station.

It's immensely cool. It's so perfect for Denver that I want to cry.

Here's a map, and pictures of each of the 5 stations.


From pugetsoundtransportation.com

International District Station:


Pioneer Square Station:


University Street Station:


Westlake Station:


Convention Place Station:

[bunt_q]

Not just those buses either, because a (real or perceived) barrier to doing much of anything along 15th is the large number of local and express routes from all over the metro area that use that corridor to serve downtown. Some split between surface routes and other routes using a shared bus and rail tunnel would give us infinitely more transit capacity. Ah, to dream. Maybe my grandkids...

[Cirrus]

Imagine this. Uptown station would be optional.

[bcp]

thats awesome....maybe better off just truning south on broadway? extension to future colfax subway?

do i sound like warren???

[Zmapper]

Here is my take on a Denver Downtown Subway:

http://goo.gl/maps/EVQK

Starting at the existing Union Station, the CPV Line would descend into a tunnel before turning right under 19th Street. Proceeding Southeast along 19th Street, there would be a station right under the Northernmost part of the Union Station Regional Rail tracks, and a pocket track around Blake street so trains could be short-turned. Two more stations, one at Larimer and one at Stout/California, would provide a connection opportunity with local bus routes and the Welton Line. The proposed line would turn South onto Broadway, with a station at roughly 18th Avenue.

Civic Center Station is proposed to receive a split-level station akin to Wilshire/Vermont in Los Angeles or Rosslyn in Arlington, Virginia. Such a design would provide a delay-free split between the future Broadway and Colfax Lines. Broadway would be given a stub tunnel to allow for a future subway or at-grade alignment south to the existing Broadway/I-25 Station.

The subway would extend under Colfax for a few blocks to Pennsylvania Station, before ending for now in two stub tracks. In the future, a subway or at-grade alignment along Colfax should be constructed to Colorado Blvd, with a future extension towards Fitzimmons Medical Center.

[BG918]

What would become of the Mall Ride if there was a 17th St subway? I wouldn't be unhappy if they just eliminated it. While I like the service it provides I would prefer it be a bus line or better yet a streetcar, or if there was a train/bus tunnel, nothing at all. In that case turn 16th back into a 2-way street.

Would the new subway utilize the under construction underground bus terminal at Union Station? Would the station be in the historic station? And would trains from the other light rail lines go into the tunnel?

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Since I'm in a sharing-things-from-other-places mood, I'll also share some info on Seattle's downtown subway, which is a perfect model for Denver. I mean perfect.

The subway is 1.3 miles long, running below downtown Seattle. It has 3 true subway stations, plus a 4th station that is in a trench but open air, and a 5th that's on the surface but connected at one end to the subway. If it were Denver, it would be exactly analogous to a subway connecting Union Station with Civic Center Station, with 3 stations in between.

The other super cool thing about it is that it carries both buses and light rail trains. This would also be freaking perfect for Denver, since BRT is part of FasTracks, and since buses on 16th Street are the core of Denver's transit system. In Seattle, you always have to pay to get on the light rail, but if you are entering the bus from one of the subway stations then it is a free ride. So buses in the subway serve the same function there as the 16th Street Shuttle serves in Denver. Except it's actually better, because you don't have to transfer; if you're riding the bus in from the neighborhoods, it just slips into the subway when it gets downtown.

Imagine light rail entering the subway from Union Station and running to Civic Center, while simultaneously all buses from the Colfax and Broadway lines enter the same subway and run to Union Station.

It's immensely cool. It's so perfect for Denver that I want to cry.

Here's a map, and pictures of each of the 5 stations.

That is awesome! How much did/would that cost to build? So clever to have buses sharing the tunnel too.

[Cirrus]

I'd be a little bit concerned about eliminating the Mall shuttle, since it's working so well already, and since ped malls are such fickle creatures.. What this would really accomplish would be separating the local Mall circulation from all the commuters and regional trips. The shuttle would still be the easiest way to get between any 2 points on the Mall, but the subway would be better for trips beginning or ending elsewhere (including Union Station).

[bcp]

^ and if you move it to 20th street it could really help serve to develop commercial along with the tons of residential happening....as much as denver talks of 'mixed use districts'....seems we revert to seperation of uses at times (albeit only by a few long-blocks...)

there are sooo many good things happening in denver!

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

That is awesome! How much did/would that cost to build? So clever to have buses sharing the tunnel too.

Seattle's subway cost $455 million in 1990. Adjusting for inflation that would be about $800 million today. But at that time it was bus-only, so if you add in the cost to lay light rail infrastructure it would be a bit more. Figure a cool billion, just to have a round number.

Seattle's didn't have light rail until 2009, so it was bus only until then.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Seattle's subway cost $455 million in 1990. Adjusting for inflation that would be about $800 million today.

That seems like a bargain to me. It's too bad Boulder would likely sue for any funds we get not to go to anything until they get their choo choo. Could Denver do this on their own through a partnership with RTD similar to what Aurora is considering - and part possibly of the Colfax line. It seems like if you put a couple really GREAT projects together for Denver you might be able to get a vote approved for some sort of DenverTracks project/tax.

[Cirrus]

I dunno. A billion is probably too big for Denver to do on its own (without a LOT of federal assistance, anyway). And unlike a Colfax Streetcar this would really be a regional facility, so they shouldn't have to.

It's premature at this point anyway. One day it will be necessary, and everyone will know it's necessary because the downtown shuttles carrying everyone from Union Station to their offices will be at capacity and increasingly inconvenient. When that happens the rest of the region will have a stronger transit culture and a vested interest in making sure all the FasTracks lines continue to operate well, and so they'll get on board.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I dunno. A billion is probably too big for Denver to do on its own (without a LOT of federal assistance, anyway). And unlike a Colfax Streetcar this would really be a regional facility, so they shouldn't have to.

It's premature at this point anyway. One day it will be necessary, and everyone will know it's necessary because the downtown shuttles carrying everyone from Union Station to their offices will be at capacity and increasingly inconvenient. When that happens the rest of the region will have a stronger transit culture and a vested interest in making sure all the FasTracks lines continue to operate well, and so they'll get on board.

Agreed.

In addition, as is NEVER the case, build the subway where the infrastructure is not too built up. Property owners, businesses with frontage on 17th, 18th, 16th, 15th and 14th Streets, etc., would make it extremely expensive to build. Instead, build the subway under North bound Speer. Ideally, IMO, the south terminus would be Broadway Station, going under southbound Broadway until Speer, then going north. Move the Convention Center light rail station south, and, have a multi-level light rail and subway station at that point.

I am not sure how to get to either Union Station or the Light Rail Station, as developers have furiously blocked westbound approaches with ersatz buildout, and, the east approach is slowly being strangled with even worse development.

Perhaps a turn east off of northbound Speer on Wynkoop would be a good compromise, with a station under Wynkoop at the South entrance of Union Station.

While making a high density steel rail grid over a small area of Downtown Denver has great aesthetic appeal, the very high traffic loads requirements of 2030 or 2040 likely are going to demand major southwest - northeast rail lines through the existing core 5 to 10 km east of 6th and Champa.

[PlattParker]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Seattle's subway cost $455 million in 1990. Adjusting for inflation that would be about $800 million today. But at that time it was bus-only, so if you add in the cost to lay light rail infrastructure it would be a bit more. Figure a cool billion, just to have a round number.

Seattle's didn't have light rail until 2009, so it was bus only until then.

As a former Seattle resident it is rather hilarious to read these posts about the "Seattle Subway". First off, it isn't the Seattle subway, it is the transit tunnel, and as you mention it was only a few years ago that it became that, as anyone familiar with it would know, it is the bus tunnel.

I used to use the bus tunnel when I worked near it's eastern terminus. We would go down to Pioneer Square for lunch. It was a rather surreal experience standing in these grand underground spaces and being the only ones there. And from the look of the pictures things haven't changed greatly with the addition of the light rail.

I would love for Denver to have a subway system, but I think we could find better examples to follow than the frickin' bus tunnel.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Instead, build the subway under North bound Speer

Well, except that would completely fail to serve the main spine of downtown, which is the whole point. I don't think it would be worth it if you weren't under 16th or 17th. Maybe maybe 15th or 18th, but even then you're getting to be too far to one side to properly serve half of downtown.

Originally Posted by PlattParker

First off, it isn't the Seattle subway, it is the transit tunnel... I think we could find better examples to follow than the frickin' bus tunnel

Any underground transit tunnel is a subway. The word is a descriptive term. The name Seattle happens to give its subway is irrelevant.

As for better examples, I think we're all ears if you have any. Please do tell.

When providing a better example, please also describe why Seattle's isn't a good one.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Well, except that would completely fail to serve the main spine of downtown, which is the whole point. I don't think it would be worth it if you weren't under 16th or 17th. Maybe maybe 15th or 18th, but even then you're getting to be too far to one side to properly serve half of downtown.

Any underground transit tunnel is a subway. The word is a descriptive term. The name Seattle happens to give its subway is irrelevant.

As for better examples, I think we're all ears if you have any. Please do tell.

When providing a better example, please also describe why Seattle's isn't a good one.

I respectfully disagree.

The central spine of Denver is a small fraction of a larger, downtown district, that, as time passes will generate a larger and larger proportion of public transit demand.

This, IMO, needs to be serviced with high capacity transport systems designed for huge increases in population density in a 5 to 10 km belt surrounding the Market Street to DUS light rail station 'mini spine.'

The subway issue is not moving people between DUS and Market Street station, but rather how can many hundreds of thousands of potential subway users be integrated into a far larger downtown scheme.

Subways generate that type of density.

Sometime, go up the CN Tower in Toronto, and, notice how closely highrises follow the Younge Street, University AVenue, and, Bloor Street subway lines.
Most of this growth occurred AFTER the subway lines were built, and, while these lines serve the Financial district extremely well, their very existence has spawned huge developments outside of traditional downtown. Go to the intersection of Bloor and Younge, one of the finest people watching places I have ever seen, and, look at what the subways have wrought.

Besides, putting a subway down the 16th Street Mall would be a hugely expensive alternative to a bus shuttle that remains the busiest portion of the RTD world and could easily be doubled in frequency.
Now extending the subway past the Capitol south to the Broadway Station is another story....

[Cirrus]

Yes, subways produce TOD. That is true. Remind me to tell you where I spend my weekdays sometime.

But the potential TOD market on the fringes of downtown is a totally different market based on totally different paths from the DUS-to-Civic Center spine. You can build a line to serve future TOD on the fringes if you want to, but in the mean time you are still faced with the problem of moving people along the spine. Your proposal is fine on its own terms, but it doesn't solve a real world problem that is going to exist, and will have to be solved.

[BG918]

While I don't doubt the eventual need for a downtown subway, another solution could be a high frequency streetcar that would run from Union Station to Civic Center to I-25/Broadway. That would take the place of the MallRide, relieve the bus congestion along Broadway/Lincoln, and could tie into a future Colfax streetcar line by the Capitol or into a line up to Highland by Union Station (via Wewatta/15th).

[bobg]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Besides, putting a subway down the 16th Street Mall would be a hugely expensive alternative to a bus shuttle that remains the busiest portion of the RTD world and could easily be doubled in frequency.

That's the crux of the issue the mall ride cannot be easily doubled in frequency. Last plan I read the best RTD and consultants could come up with was having the bus alternate stops on 16th to improve throughput. As a result RTD is more reliant on the 18th/19th street circulator to pick up the additional demand from Fastracks.

The question becomes once both of those circulators are maxed out then what? RTD/Denver/DDP might be able to come up with higher capacity vehicles, they might need another corridor with a similar circulator, or they may need to go bellow ground in order to mitigate impacts to the businesses/residents on the surface while they obtain the efficiency needed.

[Zmapper]

I chose 19th Street for a few reasons. The biggest one is that 19th would have the least disruption, and would allow the tunnel to seamlessly connect with the CPV and West lines. 19th would allow for higher density development in an area that is just parking lots today.