Winnipeg Construction

[1ajs]

Another downtown icon falls?

Times Change(d) club may fold pending sale of Fortune Block



First, the Shanghai Restaurant closed on King Street, where the 139-year-old Coronation Block awaits a wrecking ball.
Then, the Wagon Wheel Lunch learned its days on Hargrave Street were numbered by a plan to replace the Norlyn Building with a parkade.


And now, gentrification is about to claim another iconic downtown Winnipeg business. The pending sale of the 140-year-old Fortune Block at the southwest corner of Main Street and St. Mary Avenue has placed the future of Times Change(d) High & Lonesome Club in doubt, said proprietor John Scoles, the self-proclaimed "president/janitor" of the 25-year-old roots-music venue.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/another-downtown-icon-falls-157729695.html

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

Another downtown icon falls?

Times Change(d) club may fold pending sale of Fortune Block



First, the Shanghai Restaurant closed on King Street, where the 139-year-old Coronation Block awaits a wrecking ball.
Then, the Wagon Wheel Lunch learned its days on Hargrave Street were numbered by a plan to replace the Norlyn Building with a parkade.


And now, gentrification is about to claim another iconic downtown Winnipeg business. The pending sale of the 140-year-old Fortune Block at the southwest corner of Main Street and St. Mary Avenue has placed the future of Times Change(d) High & Lonesome Club in doubt, said proprietor John Scoles, the self-proclaimed "president/janitor" of the 25-year-old roots-music venue.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/another-downtown-icon-falls-157729695.html

This part,

The owner of the Fortune Block has accepted a purchase offer, said Scoles, who fears the building -- which sits on the city's historical buildings inventory but does not enjoy heritage protection -- will be demolished to make way for residential development on the west side of Main Street.

is interesting. What's going to be built on this location? Rendering, anyone?

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by armorand93

This part,



is interesting. What's going to be built on this location? Rendering, anyone?

I suspect there will be significant opposition to any plans to demolish a whole block of pre-twentieth century buildings. This will take some time to sort out.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

I suspect there will be significant opposition to any plans to demolish a whole block of pre-twentieth century buildings. This will take some time to sort out.

The part that kills me is the 3 empty parking lots that have been that way for 30 or more years. I have always though that this stretch of Main St is ripe for residential development with the Forks being so close by. I don't know how the sales would go but my vision has been for something similar to CityPlace in Toronto.....maybe not as tall but you get the idea.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Biff

The part that kills me is the 3 empty parking lots that have been that way for 30 or more years...

Agreed. Why does this always happen? How many empty lots in and around Main street would be more appropriate for this type of redevelopment? What about Parcel 4 even?

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Agreed. Why does this always happen? How many empty lots in and around Main street would be more appropriate for this type of redevelopment? What about Parcel 4 even?

Stop calling them "empty" or "vacant" lots. At worst they are surface parking lots.

Its not like there is a ton of property for sale in downtown Winnipeg.

Even the article itself touches on the fact that many landowners downtown are sitting on their properties thinking that the value will continue to increase.

[Bdog]

Not too sure why this would be considered gentrification...

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Not too sure why this would be considered gentrification...

From Bartley himself..

Bartley Kives
9:48 AM on 6/7/2012

Hardly, folks. "Gentrification" gets abused so often as a term, people sometimes forget the intended meaning.

When property values rise, new developments tend to crowd out funky businesses or cheaper accommodations in bohemian areas, either through higher rents in existing buildings or through demolition and reconstruction.

It's a double-edged sword: New residential usually means miore units means more people and improved safety in a given area. It also tends to increase the tax base. But previous uses get pushed out.

Winnipeg has little experience with this phenomenon, given our slow growth. But there is now some upward pressure on several neglected areas, including parts of the massive downtown.

Bartley

Which begs the question. What about it makes you think that it is not a case of gentrification?

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by h0twired

From Bartley himself..



Which begs the question. What about it makes you think that it is not a case of gentrification?

I tend to think of Gentrification in more of a residential sense - a marked change in demographics of a neighbourhood. A neighbourhood as a whole seeing rising property values, influx of wealthier residents, and a general reinvestment in the area (e.g. Gentrification is slowly taking place In Wesy Broadway). This is an isolated case of 1 building (or a few in the larger area). Is centre point gentrification too?

Everyone has there own definition. To me, this isn't an example of the concept.

[armorand93]

Nobody answered my question...

Whats going to be built here, that will demolish an entire block of buildings?!

[headhorse]

I'd like to at least see the facade kept in a future use for the site.. anyone know what the condition of the interior is? would the building even be salvagable?

[cheswick]

Looks like work is begining on the sports bar in Cityplace. They've blocked off the entire west side walkway

[cllew]

They have been doing demo at night for the last few weeks in that area of the mall. Get off of working evenings and there would be a number of dumpsters next to the parking exit waiting to be filled up.

[drew]

Originally Posted by armorand93

Nobody answered my question...

Whats going to be built here, that will demolish an entire block of buildings?!

This is Winnipeg. We demolish first, and ask the smart questions later.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by h0twired

Stop calling them "empty" or "vacant" lots. At worst they are surface parking lots.

I think 'empty' and/or 'vacant' is a good description of a surface parking lot that resulted from an earlier building being torn down at some point. It's an empty part of the urban fabric that adds nothing, other than cheap car storage, to the downtown. I get it, property owners like to sit on surface lots because they generate revenue, require almost no money for upkeep, and are taxed less than if there was a building on the site. I get it. Great for speculation. I still think it's a crying shame to demolish standing buildings when (gravel) parking lots (some even owned by the city) are not made available to build upon. I think we need to ask ourselves why it is cheaper/easier for a developer to buy buildings with rent paying tenants than it is to pry surface parking lots from the hands of owners. The problem is that land is taxed not based on development potential, but by the improvements to that land. This is why we have had a gravel parking at Portage and Main for the past two decades. Surface parking lots are dead space - empty, void of life.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

I think we need to ask ourselves why it is cheaper/easier for a developer to buy buildings with rent paying tenants than it is to pry surface parking lots from the hands of owners.

I suspect that it is because the parking lot generates more money than the tenant of the Fortune Block.

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

The problem is that land is taxed not based on development potential, but by the improvements to that land. This is why we have had a gravel parking at Portage and Main for the past two decades. Surface parking lots are dead space - empty, void of life.

This has been discussed MANY times before. Raising property taxes on surface lots will just increase the price of parking to the end user and potentially drive businesses out of the core. It isn't exactly a cut and dry solution.

At the end of the day I think the only solution is forcing development to be well thought out and something that adds to the fabric of downtown. This means not focusing so much as to what is going away but rather how much value is being added to the new development. The Fortune Block is a great block, but the land value is now worth more than the building so it is unlikely that it will ever be restored because the owner knows that it is worth more as an empty lot than a standing building. So then someone will say "enforce heritage laws". The problem with that is that the building is probably in a shape where the renovation costs alone probably wouldn't justify the return from tenants (especially in Winnipeg where commercial real estate has a limited demand). This would mean that the current owner would literally have to give away the building just to be able to convince someone to restore it.

So here is where we find ourselves.

Now what?

[Flavelle103]

i always thought that block, with the Wpg Hotel and a complementary new construction on the Blue Note lot, would be a nice boutique hotel spot. But then we already have the Albert and St. Charles awaiting the same.
I have no problem with preserving these bldgs, but think the city needs to adequately compensate a developer for saving them.

[BubberMiley]

Seeing as building on the Empire Hotel site/parking lot across the street will never happen, let them have at either of the two empty foundations a couple of blocks north at Portage and Main.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by h0twired

I suspect that it is because the parking lot generates more money than the tenant of the Fortune Block.

Agreed. Net of taxes and other costs, a parking lot is probably more profitable than the Fortune Block. I still think that's a shame.

Originally Posted by h0twired

This has been discussed MANY times before. Raising property taxes on surface lots will just increase the price of parking to the end user and potentially drive businesses out of the core. It isn't exactly a cut and dry solution.

Of course a surface parking lot is always going to be a better bet under the present tax scheme. Under a land value tax scheme, the economics of surface parking shift -- this is true. Would it be so bad if parking wasn't dirt cheap in downtown Winnipeg? I know it's not a cut and dried solution, but the present system doesn't work. Wasn't Katz promising a strategy to reduce the number of surface lots in downtown Winnipeg? What other ideas are there?

Originally Posted by h0twired

At the end of the day I think the only solution is forcing development to be well thought out and something that adds to the fabric of downtown. This means not focusing so much as to what is going away but rather how much value is being added to the new development.

I couldn't agree more. However, the relative value of a new development may be open to some debate. Is it better to have one "Times Change(d)" or a new residential highrise? Both add value to the urban fabric, but differently. I'd like to have both.

Your points are well taken. However, I still think there is scope to reform the way the city regulates and taxes empty-vacant-parking lots. And of course the economics don't make sense for a restoration of the Fortune Block. But let's not forget that the Avenue Building wouldn't have made economic sense without government intervention and assistance. Same with most of the residential activity in the Exchange right now.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Looks like work is begining on the sports bar in Cityplace. They've blocked off the entire west side walkway.

At least CityPlace might finally get some evening traffic in there. I remember when I was a kid (2000), the mall pretty much died after 5:30pm.