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  #2161  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 5:12 PM
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;-)
By all means, get out in front of the waffleshop trend (waffles are the new tacos!); but people shouldn't kid themselves that you'll be doing much for the macroecomic health of the region by selling low value-added consumables to those people who still have jobs.
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  #2162  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by McC View Post
;-)
By all means, get out in front of the waffleshop trend (waffles are the new tacos!); but people shouldn't kid themselves that you'll be doing much for the macroecomic health of the region by selling low value-added consumables to those people who still have jobs.
Perfect. I'll keep you in mind when I'm looking for investors.

You do make a good point on the maroeconomic impact of waffleshops and the like. My waffleshop will be purely for self-fulfilment purposes.
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  #2163  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by K-133 View Post
you have some reasonable arguments. Do you have some data on past downturns and how they have impacted new developments in Ottawa?
Toronto's a better example, they've had more boom-bust cycles than we have. Calgary in the 1980s -- especially large office developments in their core -- is another good one

The market was completely different the last time Ottawa's economy went down the drain. IIRC, then it was subdivisions in the burbs that went unfinished, and downtown storefronts were boarded up, but we just didn't have this kind of large multi-year construction of high rises going on, so it's hard to compare. The impacts of an unfinished clump of townhouses interrupted by the builder going belly-up in a downturn is very different than an unfinished high rise interrupted by the same. With the latter, it takes so long to get from concept to completed condo, it's possible for the market conditions to change drastically and critically undermine the economics of the project after its already underway. And this can happen even if the building is already sold, just look at eco-coté on the canal, nothing to do with market conditions there, but if the builder goes under...

UPDATE: here's a story on someone who has tried to demonstrate a direct link between highrise construction and an impending crash (haven't read his research, not vouching for it) http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jan/11/skyscrapers-china-india-recession

Last edited by McC; May 2, 2012 at 5:34 PM.
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  #2164  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 5:23 PM
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Perfect. I'll keep you in mind when I'm looking for investors.

You do make a good point on the maroeconomic impact of waffleshops and the like. My waffleshop will be purely for self-fulfilment purposes.
hopefully you'll also fulfill the sugar cravings of a few customers, too, or you'll get very fat and very poor very fast!!! ;-)
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  #2165  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:27 PM
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So are you saying it's not a good time to act on my dream of owning a waffle shop?

As for the impact of the cuts, I think that most of the impact of the uncertainty has already been felt in terms of purchasing decisions that have been put off by the thousands of people who weren't quite sure whether they would have jobs at the end of the year. The next impact will be further down the road, as even those cut will have periods of working notice followed by severance packages a year or more from now, and some of those people will be in a position to use the severance money for big purchases.

So I'd see a general downward trend in the local economy due to the magnitude of the cuts, but in the interim there might be some surprising impacts on purchases of new homes and other big ticket items.
What do you mean by surprising impacts?
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  #2166  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 11:34 PM
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What do you mean by surprising impacts?
I think there might be an uptick in demand around the time that large groups of surplused public servants are receiving their severance packages.
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  #2167  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 1:24 AM
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I think there might be an uptick in demand around the time that large groups of surplused public servants are receiving their severance packages.
If they decide to stay in Ottawa. As I recall, the last time around (mid 90's, wasn't it?), downtown condo prices dropped about 15% and took about 5 years or more to get back up to where they had been

I don't have anything concrete, but I have the impression that the average time on the market for residential properties has been increasing for a number of months now - perhaps the start of a slow down and at least some weakening of prices in the coming year?
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  #2168  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 1:44 AM
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Flipovers?

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So are you saying it's not a good time to act on my dream of owning a waffle shop?

As for the impact of the cuts, I think that most of the impact of the uncertainty has already been felt in terms of purchasing decisions that have been put off by the thousands of people who weren't quite sure whether they would have jobs at the end of the year. The next impact will be further down the road, as even those cut will have periods of working notice followed by severance packages a year or more from now, and some of those people will be in a position to use the severance money for big purchases.

So I'd see a general downward trend in the local economy due to the magnitude of the cuts, but in the interim there might be some surprising impacts on purchases of new homes and other big ticket items.
You are not factoring in the speculators who buy to flip over at 10% or more. Once the prices go stale or dip down, those guys won't be there and a you get a downward spiral: not pretty.
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  #2169  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
You are not factoring in the speculators who buy to flip over at 10% or more. Once the prices go stale or dip down, those guys won't be there and a you get a downward spiral: not pretty.
Do you think speculators represent a big part of the market at this stage? Anyone counting on big price increases now is definitely playing with fire.
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  #2170  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 3:33 PM
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If they decide to stay in Ottawa. As I recall, the last time around (mid 90's, wasn't it?), downtown condo prices dropped about 15% and took about 5 years or more to get back up to where they had been

I don't have anything concrete, but I have the impression that the average time on the market for residential properties has been increasing for a number of months now - perhaps the start of a slow down and at least some weakening of prices in the coming year?
I have the same impression on the market.

I do think the demographics are different this time around. A lot more of those impacted are going to be baby boomers, and they have shown a liking for downtown living. I think that group is close enough to retirement more likely to take a package and use it on a condo.

The condo market has also changed quite a bit. In the mid-late 90's, the sample size would have been pretty small, no? The drop could have been largely attributable to a freeze on hiring of the young graduates who made up most of the purchases at that time. Just speculating. No facts at all behind that.

I get the sense that Ottawa has been reasonably restrained in its condo-building relative to other bigger Canadian cities. That should help. Or maybe I'm just eager to stay positive in a situation that is negative in so may ways.
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  #2171  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 3:46 PM
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I do think the demographics are different this time around. A lot more of those impacted are going to be baby boomers, and they have shown a liking for downtown living. I think that group is close enough to retirement more likely to take a package and use it on a condo.
But someone has to want to buy their old house, and someone else has to buy the old home of that buyer (someone who would normally likely be a first time buyer), etc. or the whole thing falls apart.
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  #2172  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 3:55 PM
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But someone has to want to buy their old house, and someone else has to buy the old home of that buyer (someone who would normally likely be a first time buyer), etc. or the whole thing falls apart.
I can't see people who get let go say lets just leave we won't worry about our house etc.
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  #2173  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 4:22 PM
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We're talking about several thousand employees at the most. That's fewer than the number who have been hired during the Conservatives' tenure (frankly I think they should fire anyone with "Communications" in their job title and leave all the scientists and archivists in place, but I digress). It's about one year's worth of population growth, though that might now slacken off a bit. Also, since the Conservatives seem to be targeting some of the most able of the government's employees for layoffs, any employers out there in need of such people are going to love this city for the next few years.

Anyway, I very much doubt it will lead to a glut in the real estate market. At most it will cool it off a bit, and it's not like there aren't lots of people out there who can barely afford housing who wouldn't leap at the chance to buy a place for a bit less.

One of the biggest problem in real estate markets is the overvalued expectations of would-be sellers who seem to think they're entitled to the unrealized capital gains their houses would have had if they had sold at the top of the market. At a society-wide level, we could do with a good price cut on all housing.
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  #2174  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 4:42 PM
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We're talking about several thousand employees at the most. That's fewer than the number who have been hired during the Conservatives' tenure (frankly I think they should fire anyone with "Communications" in their job title and leave all the scientists and archivists in place, but I digress). It's about one year's worth of population growth, though that might now slacken off a bit. Also, since the Conservatives seem to be targeting some of the most able of the government's employees for layoffs, any employers out there in need of such people are going to love this city for the next few years.

Anyway, I very much doubt it will lead to a glut in the real estate market. At most it will cool it off a bit, and it's not like there aren't lots of people out there who can barely afford housing who wouldn't leap at the chance to buy a place for a bit less.

One of the biggest problem in real estate markets is the overvalued expectations of would-be sellers who seem to think they're entitled to the unrealized capital gains their houses would have had if they had sold at the top of the market. At a society-wide level, we could do with a good price cut on all housing.
I think if costs went down that could help you could see more people able to buy houses etc.
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  #2175  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 5:12 PM
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We're talking about several thousand employees at the most. That's fewer than the number who have been hired during the Conservatives' tenure...
but we're also likely to see little-to-no new hiring for the next two or three years as well. Let me explain (this will get wonky and detailed, skip the rest of this post if you don't care!):

The government recently froze departmental operating budgets while at the same time transferring responsibility for covering negotiated wage increases to departments (departments' annual reference levels used to be topped up by the amount of collectively-bargained salary increases). At the same time, the government has continued to negotiate collective bargaining agreements with its unions that include year-over-year cost of living adjustments (or "COLAs") on the order of about 1.5%/yr. On top of this, many or most employees also get "statutory merit increases," which are annual raises on the order of 2.5-4% within the salary band of their classification level (these are not promotions, but just raises for gaining another year's experience at a given classification level, they vary by job classification type and level, but there are generally 3-6 years worth of merit increases at any given level before an employee "maxes out")

So what does this mean? Departments must now find away to manage within a fixed budget to fund payroll increases of between 1.5-5.5% (some employees have maxed out their salary within their classification level and receive only cost of living increases, while others will receive both COLAs and the "merit" increases). Effectively, if nothing changes, this will produce a hiring freeze and perhaps even ongoing contraction of the government workforce, since most of the savings a department will make from the government's average 4% attrition rate must go to pay the increased salaries of the department's remaining employees. (there is some allowance since many of the people leaving will be at the top of the payroll and new employees generally cost less, but senior positions need to be filled, so there will be promotions, and the effect is still little-to-no-growth overall, if not contraction)

If the region's largest employer (by far) stops hiring, that will greatly reduce demand for new people (and, therefore, for new first time homebuyers) to move to Ottawa, or to stay in Ottawa after finishing school/training -- especially when we consider that a good portion of non-government employment in this town involves providing goods and services to government and/or government employees.

As a result, I think we could see a fairly sharp drop in Ottawa's population growth rates. If the population growth drops, where does demand for new housing come from? If you don't have new home buyers, how do existing home buyers trade up the property ladder? If you don't have existing homeowners trading up to larger family homes, how do new empty nest boomers sell to downsize to a nice new condo? That's when you get a bubble bursting and a serious downturn in the housing market, not just a "correction" in prices. A correction that I agree with Dado is much needed given the

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overvalued expectations of would-be sellers who seem to think they're entitled to the unrealized capital gains their houses would have had if they had sold at the top of the market. At a society-wide level, we could do with a good price cut on all housing.
Those kinds of "soft landings" in housing markets are very very rare!
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  #2176  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 6:31 PM
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Part of the issue is in the east where ever you go things are not much better while we not may see tons of new people Ontario i think we could see a big population drop.
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  #2177  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 6:37 PM
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Part of the issue is in the east where ever you go things are not much better while we not may see tons of new people Ontario i think we could see a big population drop.
part of what issue? I'm talking about the economy, and specifically as it relates to new real estate development, in the Ottawa area.
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  #2178  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 6:46 PM
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part of what issue? I'm talking about the economy, and specifically as it relates to new real estate development, in the Ottawa area.
What i am saying is in Ontario/Quebec things are really not much better in terms of jobs sure some may go west but i don't think your going to see massive amount go west short term long term is more of a concern.
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  #2179  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 8:34 PM
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68 Cooper Street

Not sure if we have something for this guy:

http://app01.ottawa.ca/postingplans/appDetails.jsf?lang=en&appId=__85YJQP

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In order to accommodate the proposed development of an 18-storey high-rise apartment building on the site, a Zoning By-law Amendment has been requested...
Elevations, Site Plan and Floor Plans PDF
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  #2180  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 9:22 PM
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Not sure if we have something for this guy:
I don't think that we do...? first I've heard of it anyway...! For reference, it's the Parking Lot at the corner of Cartier (above St Theresa's RC Church) a block south of City Hall if anyone's wondering. My one comment on the elevations: wow Roderick Lahey is one bloody boring architect, could his buildings look any less alike? same lines, same materials, only thing that varies is the shape/profile; good grief! But whatever, since it's Richcraft, there's probably not much worry that it will actually get built before the sun runs out of fuel.
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