YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Johnny Aussie]

^ I too believe that Westjet's growth will not be detrimental to YVR. Over the last couple of years, in the major centres in the west anyway, Westjet has been favouring YVR and YYC at the expense of YEG and YWG.

However, without a doubt, YYC will see a huge increase as they spread out to more of the lesser populated cities in the West. I reckon YEG will lose out as WS will focus on growing YYC into a true hub. I bet we will see more YYC - YMM, YYC-YQU and possibly further north frequencies with smaller planes. Sure there will be some funnelling away from YVR with the interior of BC, but if you look at the pattern over the years, and use AC as an example, intra-BC flying from YVR has actually increased, whilst YYC has decreased.

YVR will still benefit as well as there is still quite a bit of potential intra-BC flying. All those Air Canada Express flights are without any competition as it stands, and not all of those flights are for connecting passengers, there is still a lot of O+D to be taken away from AC. AC Express has the most to lose in my opinion... I would be worried.

On that note, I am still a loyal Star Alliance flyer and just dropped a bomb on future * flights including some on AC and about to spend even more... so I am hoping they sort out their mess soon. I am probably going to switch flyer programs from AC to SQ soon though. Just trying to time it right so I maintain Gold Status on *. Having Super Elite on AC is useless living in Australia, so no point in trying to achieve that for next year.

[Yume-sama]

I joined KrisFlyer, too, just because flying with SIA is still an "experience" rather than a hassle lol

I'll be a PPS Club member after this year, but, I'm really not sure what that entitles me to other than a shiny card and top tier Star Alliance status everywhere!

Unfortunately not a PPS Solitaire member that requires over $250,000 CAD in flights

It is recognized as AC Super Elite if you fly AC, anyways. But surely the free gifts are nicer.

[Johnny Aussie]

^ Yeah my partner is PPS so I sometimes get to go along for the free ride, despite my Star Gold Status.

Unless you travel on one particular airline having the absolute top tier for that airline only benefits you on that airline.

My point about Air Canada is in the rest of the Star Alliance network having Elite or Super Elite status makes no difference, they still see you as Gold only. Also with Krisflyer Gold it is has high as you can go and again same status across all Star carriers. There is a huge difference in Changi lounges though.. SilverKris lounges are far superior to the Star Gold ones... in fact if not flying in J class not even really worth going to the Star lounges. And the AC lounges in Canada are bordering on a joke compared to the Asia-Pacific ones.

My biggest peev about living in Australia is there is no Star carrier here anymore. Only when I fly to NZ on Air NZ am I loyal to them. The thing about AC now of course is the minimum AC requirement which would not be a problem... but it now forces me to have to fly AC at least once a year back to Canada.. not that I mind that.. would be nice to not have that requirement which appears to be unique to Aeroplan.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

^ I too believe that Westjet's growth will not be detrimental to YVR. Over the last couple of years, in the major centres in the west anyway, Westjet has been favouring YVR and YYC at the expense of YEG and YWG.

It seems to me that the issue with Westjet and future YVR growth is Vancouver's geography within Westjet's current route structure. Unless the airline starts flying to Asia, I don't see YVR as any more than what it is -- a focus city. If I'm living in, say, Kamloops, and wanting to fly any point east, it makes more sense for me to transit via YYC than to backtrack to YVR

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

On that note, I am still a loyal Star Alliance flyer and just dropped a bomb on future * flights including some on AC and about to spend even more... so I am hoping they sort out their mess soon. I am probably going to switch flyer programs from AC to SQ soon though. Just trying to time it right so I maintain Gold Status on *. Having Super Elite on AC is useless living in Australia, so no point in trying to achieve that for next year.

I never found PPS on SQ to be anything special. And the fact that only J or F flights count towards your status doesn't help. I find Cathay's Marco Polo club to be miles ahead as a loyalty club (sorry for the pun). Doesn't help you, I know, given that they are OneWorld...

[LeftCoaster]

Well I don't know as much about this stuff as some of you here, but the way I see it is if western Canada needs a new route to Europe, if its AC chances are its going to be out of YVR and if it's Westjet I'd bet it would be out of YYC.

Other than that I would assume smaller, self sustaining domestic and us routes will continue to be out of whichever airport can support them, regardless of which carrier is running them, but larger routes would be out of hubs and rely on regional traffic.

[Gordon]

I would be surprised if Westjet started flying internationally because it would be a total deviation from the Southwest airlines model that they have followed.

these international routes are ultra competitive.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Gordon

I would be surprised if Westjet started flying internationally because it would be a total deviation from the Southwest airlines model that they have followed.

these international routes are ultra competitive.

WestJet already deviated from the Southwest model a long time ago, the intention to start a regional fleet with turboprops only reinforces that. If anything they are becoming more like Alaska, even if their original operation started out like Southwest.

[Yume-sama]

I think the decision to purchase planes smaller than a 737 has more to do with the fact the Canadian population is much less than the American, and we have much fewer large cities that warrant a 737. SouthWest uses their 737's on regional routes, the only difference is there are more people. BUT, short term leasing a 767 certainly seems to deviate from the SW route! But that's more out of geographical necessity, too.

Kind of like how JAL and ANA use 747's (now mostly retired), 777's, 787's etc. on regional routes within the Country due to population.

I do agree though that it would require too much of a business model change for WS to start international flights. They'd have to have more than one class, to bring in the money. And part of the charm of WestJet is pretending we're all equal! There was enough of a tiny uproar when people could purchase emergency exit seats for $30 more

[Bigtime]

If some of you don't think WestJet will operate inter-continental flights in the future you are going to be pretty surprised I think.

[incognism]

I think YVR-HKG is ripe for a lower-cost entrant again. Oasis seemed to be making a decent go at things before the massive spike in oil prices killed them off.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

If some of you don't think WestJet will operate inter-continental flights in the future you are going to be pretty surprised I think.

The thought of spending more than an hour on a Westjet flight gives me chest pains.

[Valley_Refugee]

I think the decision to purchase planes smaller than a 737 has more to do with the fact the Canadian population is much less than the American, and we have much fewer large cities that warrant a 737. SouthWest uses their 737's on regional routes, the only difference is there are more people. BUT, short term leasing a 767 certainly seems to deviate from the SW route! But that's more out of geographical necessity, too.

Kind of like how JAL and ANA use 747's (now mostly retired), 777's, 787's etc. on regional routes within the Country due to population.

I do agree though that it would require too much of a business model change for WS to start international flights. They'd have to have more than one class, to bring in the money. And part of the charm of WestJet is pretending we're all equal! There was enough of a tiny uproar when people could purchase emergency exit seats for $30 more

Actually, I second the idea they are becoming more like Alaska and less like SW...Alaska has Horizon, which operates turboprops on regional routes. But you're right, the decision to purchase turboprops is more due to the sparser Canadian population.

WestJet could give a go at a Trans-Atlantic/Pacific LCC model...they have a lower labour cost structure than Air Canada and, if they chose to concentrate on Calgary, lower landing costs vs. Pearson. But yeah, a 9-hour flight to Europe on WestJet would not be very appealing.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee

WestJet could give a go at a Trans-Atlantic/Pacific LCC model...they have a lower labour cost structure than Air Canada and, if they chose to concentrate on Calgary, lower landing costs vs. Pearson. But yeah, a 9-hour flight to Europe on WestJet would not be very appealing.

Agreed, but perhaps with 787s and a better level of ambience/service on their overseas flights (with perhaps business class at a competitive price), it might not be problematic. ... Hey, I once flew AF CDG-LAX return, and the service was great. I've also taken AF numerous times domestically to Perpignan, and the local inflight service (esp the "meal" service) is total junk.

Overseas flights are usually better than dometic ones on many airlines. WestJet could do the similar, I think.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I don't know why you would be. Any growth of Westjet is going to be to the benefit of YYC and the detriment of YVR.

As much as you guys hate AC, YVR is their second largest hub and it is far more responsible for the growth of the airport than Westjet.

I'm no AC hater. In fact, I think their Trans-pacific product and most of their international product is pretty good.

I would just be happy to see two national carriers in different alliances. We'd likely have a broader range of direct flights out of Canada.

In addition, while WestJet does have their HQ in Calgary and that is a focus point, you'd likely see Western Canada in general get a stronger focus. Travelling west, there would be direct flights to Asia from Calgary, however where they wouldn't support a full plane, those routes would invariably be shuttled through Vancouver.

I agree that Vancouver gets excellent service to Asia. However, I'd like to see two strong Canadian full service airlines again.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'm no AC hater. In fact, I think their Trans-pacific product and most of their international product is pretty good.

I would just be happy to see two national carriers in different alliances. We'd likely have a broader range of direct flights out of Canada.

In addition, while WestJet does have their HQ in Calgary and that is a focus point, you'd likely see Western Canada in general get a stronger focus. Travelling west, there would be direct flights to Asia from Calgary, however where they wouldn't support a full plane, those routes would invariably be shuttled through Vancouver.

I agree that Vancouver gets excellent service to Asia. However, I'd like to see two strong Canadian full service airlines again.

What about service increases to Europe, if any? Do you think this is possible?

[SpongeG]

if the demand was here i think it would be going on already, in the summer it increases because we get more europeans wanting to come here - i don't think its the other way around

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What about service increases to Europe, if any? Do you think this is possible?

Well, given that you live in Europe, what do you think? Double dip recession in the UK, record unemployment in Spain, Portugal/Italy/Ireland/Greece are in a mess. Where would the growth come from?

I would see only marginal increases in the short to medium term -- most likely from Germany (LH tried seasonal Munich service a few years ago and might do it again) or London (hopefully the seasonal VS service becomes year round).

YVR-Europe traffic has been pretty flat for a while now.

[incognism]

YVR-MUC might be possible. Their only West Coast destinations from MUC are currently are SFO and LAX while FRA gets service from YVR, SEA, LAX and SFO.

However, LH discontinued their YYC-FRA service a few months back, and while it's not the same market, it's possible they view Western NA as being adequately served for the time being.

Exciting that VS is entering the market and I'd hope they can be successful at it though. Giving VX's interest in YVR, I could foresee VA jumping into the action and making YVR a nice little Virgin group connection point.

[Johnny Aussie]

Just did a bit of snooping around at some of the more local carriers flying out of YVR and noted the following.

Hawkair is boosting its summer weekly frequencies by 10 with more flying to Terrace and Smithers. Hawkair will have 35 weekly flights out of YVR this summer.

Orca is adding 2 new routes to Qualicum and Nanaimo out of the South Terminal. Each route will have 2 daily (ex Sat). Orca will have 52 weekly flights this summer compared to 33 last year.

This is on top of the increases by Pacific Coastal I posted a few weeks back.

Also, AC is boosting YVR-YYZ with another daily flight to 19 daily.

With all these changes, YVR will see 89 more weekly flights than last summer (this includes the net gain of 48 additional by the little guys and a net gain of 41 by the bigger guys).

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by incognism

YVR-MUC might be possible. Their only West Coast destinations from MUC are currently are SFO and LAX while FRA gets service from YVR, SEA, LAX and SFO.

However, LH discontinued their YYC-FRA service a few months back, and while it's not the same market, it's possible they view Western NA as being adequately served for the time being.

Exciting that VS is entering the market and I'd hope they can be successful at it though. Giving VX's interest in YVR, I could foresee VA jumping into the action and making YVR a nice little Virgin group connection point.

Could you elaborate on that? What sort of "connection point" do you visualize? I'm interested.