Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Zassk]

^^ All good questions. I often wonder what the real dollar-value of the existing VCC-Clark station is, and whether abandoning it after only 10 years might actually be the best choice long-term.

[jsbertram]

I'm not sure which low-rise building near VCC-Clark you are referring to, but the closest one is SHAW cable, and the next one westwards is Albion Fisheries.

The current Millennium line tail tracks and storage track west of the station extend several hundred feet west of Glen Dr over the north parking lot of Albion Fisheries, so there isn't an easy way to change the direction of the tracks until they are past the QLT building. Furthermore. the Albion site is being knocked over so the new MEC world HQ can be built on the site. The approved redevelopment plans don't include a ROW for the M-Line to curve southwards over their property (between the new MEC buildings and the QLT building)

The green space west of QLT is reserved for a future building, so the earliest opportunity for curving the tracks south is at Foley St & GNW. Unfortunately there are people living there south of the Foley St & GNW intersection, so the next opportunity for curving the tracks south is at Fraser St & GNW.

However, the curve westwards at Fraser & Broadway is unlikely to be do-able now because the new tower on the NW corner of Fraser & Broadway has recently been approved & demolition of the old buildings there is almost done. If COV was serious about running the M-Line under Fraser to Broadway (and then westwards to UBC), they would have made provisions for the ROW under this new building, and I haven't seen anything to indicate there is a 'rapid transit tunnel corridor' planned for running under this property.


Running the M-Line westwards along the northern edge of the GNW campus (over a strip of the adjacent rail yard) is easier to do than to get the guideway over, around or through existing buildings. Today, the GNW campus may seem lightly used and under-developed, but the COV planners are expecting the rail lines & yards between Main St, GNW, Clark Dr, and Terminal to be removed (perhaps not in our lifetimes) so the False Creek Flats can be redeveloped as light industrial sites and high-density urban housing for tens of thousands of people (think Olympic Village without the waterfront).

Having an M-Line station at GNW & Prince Edward (aka Brunswick & E 2nd) could be the False Creek Flats 'transit hub' station centered between Clark Dr and Main St for the future workers and residents of the area, but still allow for a relatively easy southwards alignment to Broadway or 10th Ave.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by huenthar

...

Also, does anyone know if for option 'A' of the RRT option (from Commercial) if they evaluated it as if it were also a Millennium Line extension (ie abandon VCC-Clark), or did they assume it was a separate system? I really wonder if the expense of the extra length and complication of the route to bring it back under Broadway outweighs the expense of rebuilding that section by tunnelling right from Commercial-Broadway in a straight line all the way...

It is my understanding that 'Option A' was for a separate train system that wouldn't interline with Expo or Millennium trains.

The glaring problem with it was there was no place for the OMC to be put anywhere along the Broadway corridor. An idea was to have the OMC somewhere east of the Grandview Cut, but now these 'deadhead' trains would be running in the cut parallel with the M-Line guideway for several miles between the OMC and the first station at Commercial & Broadway.

This is also a problem with the LRT options: Where could the OMC be located?

[racc]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that looking in retrospect at the Canada Line construction on Cambie, and the finacial and legal turmoil that resulted, it was thought better to drill under 10th avenue, thereby not creating masses of lawsuits from Broadway merchants saying they had lost their business because the street was ripped up and inaccessible. It's going to be hard on the residents of 10th avenue, but that also depends largely on whether it's built cut-and-cover, or bored tunnel.

10th Avenue has been the obvious choice for years before the Cambie construction. As a major transit corridor, it would be really disruptive having the line built along Broadway especially with the station pits. 10th is also higher than Broadway meaning that the access to underground stations is working with the grade thus thus the station access times would be lower. Also, 10th is a straight shot to UBC and would not require a curve at Alma.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by racc

10th is also higher than Broadway meaning that the access to underground stations is working with the grade thus thus the station access times would be lower.

This only works for the westbound platforms. Eastbound or center platforms would still require stairs / escalators / elevators in order to shuttle people to the other side of the westbound track.

Also, the grade differential between 10th and Broadway would only apply to a few stations.

[Metro-One]

hence they would likely used stalked stations. So one does not need to go under and back up.

[racc]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

This only works for the westbound platforms. Eastbound or center platforms would still require stairs / escalators / elevators in order to shuttle people to the other side of the westbound track.

Also, the grade differential between 10th and Broadway would only apply to a few stations.

The distance to the surface is less from both platforms and a few stations is better than none.

[squeezied]

If the east and west bound tunnels are going to stacked that means construction will be cut and cover, akin to the canada line construction. I thought the tunnels will be bored and side by side.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by squeezied

If the east and west bound tunnels are going to stacked that means construction will be cut and cover, akin to the canada line construction. I thought the tunnels will be bored and side by side.

Why can't the TBM bore stacked tubes?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Trains are usually taller than wide, so stacking them vertically would need a larger bore diameter.

You would also need to have some space between the rail levels in the stations or hideously low ceilings. With either you would have to build transitions coming in every station from the main bore diameter to the station level.

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I'm not sure which low-rise building near VCC-Clark you are referring to, but the closest one is SHAW cable, and the next one westwards is Albion Fisheries.

The current Millennium line tail tracks and storage track west of the station extend several hundred feet west of Glen Dr over the north parking lot of Albion Fisheries, so there isn't an easy way to change the direction of the tracks until they are past the QLT building. Furthermore. the Albion site is being knocked over so the new MEC world HQ can be built on the site. The approved redevelopment plans don't include a ROW for the M-Line to curve southwards over their property (between the new MEC buildings and the QLT building)

The green space west of QLT is reserved for a future building, so the earliest opportunity for curving the tracks south is at Foley St & GNW. Unfortunately there are people living there south of the Foley St & GNW intersection, so the next opportunity for curving the tracks south is at Fraser St & GNW.

However, the curve westwards at Fraser & Broadway is unlikely to be do-able now because the new tower on the NW corner of Fraser & Broadway has recently been approved & demolition of the old buildings there is almost done. If COV was serious about running the M-Line under Fraser to Broadway (and then westwards to UBC), they would have made provisions for the ROW under this new building, and I haven't seen anything to indicate there is a 'rapid transit tunnel corridor' planned for running under this property.


Running the M-Line westwards along the northern edge of the GNW campus (over a strip of the adjacent rail yard) is easier to do than to get the guideway over, around or through existing buildings. Today, the GNW campus may seem lightly used and under-developed, but the COV planners are expecting the rail lines & yards between Main St, GNW, Clark Dr, and Terminal to be removed (perhaps not in our lifetimes) so the False Creek Flats can be redeveloped as light industrial sites and high-density urban housing for tens of thousands of people (think Olympic Village without the waterfront).

Having an M-Line station at GNW & Prince Edward (aka Brunswick & E 2nd) could be the False Creek Flats 'transit hub' station centered between Clark Dr and Main St for the future workers and residents of the area, but still allow for a relatively easy southwards alignment to Broadway or 10th Ave.

Albion Fisheries, that's the building I was thinking of - having the tracks going up over that building and into the hillside of the park. But if it's being redeveloped in the near future, it's not too late to work in a ROW with the development plans - sounds more like a perfect opportunity to me. If this happened and the line entered a tunnel at China Creek Park, it could run diagonally beneath the lowrise apts and houses in the area and reach Broadway east of the tower site on the NW corner (would have been better under that site...). Or (looking at the map again now), what are the plans for the Shaw parking lot right next to the station? If the tracks are rebuilt to curve right out of the station they could run over that lot and through the tip of the SW corner of the Albion/MEC HQ site and along GNW to get to a tunnel portal in the hillside of the park.

In any case it would mean rebuilding the tail tracks of course - I would think service to VCC should still be possible while that goes on, but if not, well, they already shut down VCC regularly for silly random events and meetings... they could shut it down for a few months in the summer when they need to connect the new tracks to the old.

[Valley_Refugee]

It is my understanding that 'Option A' was for a separate train system that wouldn't interline with Expo or Millennium trains.

The glaring problem with it was there was no place for the OMC to be put anywhere along the Broadway corridor. An idea was to have the OMC somewhere east of the Grandview Cut, but now these 'deadhead' trains would be running in the cut parallel with the M-Line guideway for several miles between the OMC and the first station at Commercial & Broadway.

I'm fairly certain Option A has always been planned as an extension of the Millennium Line.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Why are they not looking at bringing it under Broadway sooner, with a station at Fraser/Broadway instead of GNW? The flats already have stations 500m away at VCC and at Main, and students etc can always ride the 84/replacement local bus along GNW/2nd - and if future development reaaally needs a new "closer" station in the Flats, the Expo line is <200m away on a flat alignment on Terminal.

...

Also, does anyone know if for option 'A' of the RRT option (from Commercial) if they evaluated it as if it were also a Millennium Line extension (ie abandon VCC-Clark), or did they assume it was a separate system? I really wonder if the expense of the extra length and complication of the route to bring it back under Broadway outweighs the expense of rebuilding that section by tunnelling right from Commercial-Broadway in a straight line all the way...

Originally, the Millennium Line allignment was to terminate under Broadway in front of VCC - but the City of Vancouver wanted to relocate it to the present site to encourage development of high tech office space on the False Creek Flats (i.e at the future Finning Station).

A couple of issues raised at the time included having to cut and cover the VCC station on Broadway (causing major disruption because of soft soils due to the underground China Creek. I expect that running the line "under the park" (China Creek Park) would encounter issues with the underground creek.

So that decision has essentially been made - that the line will not run past Fraser & Broadway.

WRT RRT Option A - I have always thought it was an extension of the Millennium Line.

[jsbertram]

The Spring 2011 Phase 2 Design Guide (page 7 for those of you who are following along) shows option "A" under Broadway between Main and Commercial, but it appears that there wouldn't be a track connection to either the Expo or Millennium lines at Broadway & Commercial.

Option "B" is the continuation of the Millennium line westward from VCC-Clark to Broadway & Main.

West of Main St, both options would tunnel under Broadway & W10th to UBC.

The Spring 2012 revisions have dropped the RRT option "A", so the RRT preference is the continuation of the Millennium line.

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The Spring 2012 revisions have dropped the RRT option "A", so the RRT preference is the continuation of the Millennium line.

VCC-Clark is the obvious choice for starting the Millennium Line Extension.. or should it now be called the Evergreen Line Extension.

Come to think of it, the name "Evergreen" was the name chosen when the line was going to be LRT (my entry, "Tragic Mistake", didn't make the cut)... If the service pattern is going to be Douglas Collage to VCC Clark, with trains from Waterfront terminating at King George or Lougheed Town Centre, the name "Evergreen" should be dropped.

Millennium Line runs from Douglas Collage to VCC-Clark, and trains from Waterfront would all be "Expo Line", to either King George or Lougheed Town Centre.. Many cities have lines with the same name/number that split to serve different destinations at their extremities. The 5 in NYC, the Picadilly in London.. and the Canada Line in Vancouver.. Then only Braid and Sapparton need to be rebranded. just mho

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Dave2

VCC-Clark is the obvious choice for starting the Millennium Line Extension.. or should it now be called the Evergreen Line Extension.

Come to think of it, the name "Evergreen" was the name chosen when the line was going to be LRT (my entry, "Tragic Mistake", didn't make the cut)... If the service pattern is going to be Douglas Collage to VCC Clark, with trains from Waterfront terminating at King George or Lougheed Town Centre, the name "Evergreen" should be dropped.

Millennium Line runs from Douglas Collage to VCC-Clark, and trains from Waterfront would all be "Expo Line", to either King George or Lougheed Town Centre.. Many cities have lines with the same name/number that split to serve different destinations at their extremities. The 5 in NYC, the Picadilly in London.. and the Canada Line in Vancouver.. Then only Braid and Sapparton need to be rebranded. just mho

Agreed.

[SFUVancouver]

The Albion fisheries building is going to be demolished pretty soon and Mountain Equipment Co-op will build their new headquarters on the site. Due to this a SkyTrain line over the building and plunging into the hillside of the adjacent park is a non-starter.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Dave2

VCC-Clark is the obvious choice for starting the Millennium Line Extension.. or should it now be called the Evergreen Line Extension.

I must have missed it but since when was it announced that the name for the existing Millenium Line would be changed (presumably at 2016??) to Evergreen Line? I always thought Millenium would remain as is (including any Broadway Skytrain extension) and Evergreen Line would just refer to Lougheed Mall to Douglas.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I must have missed it but since when was it announced that the name for the existing Millenium Line would be changed (presumably at 2016??) to Evergreen Line?

I'm pretty sure that nothing official has been announced. But if the majority of trains on the Evergreen extension are going to be running through from PoCo to VCC/Clarke, then it makes sense to have a single name for the "line" or route that they run.

[red-paladin]

UBC is full of evergreen trees too, so I don't see a fundamental problem.
Although I was one of the people that suggested the name (For the trees in the Tri Cities and so that the line can be green on the map) so I'm a bit biased!