South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[Stingray2004]

Might as well post some more pics as a lack on this project is an understatement:


























Source: http://www.sfprconstruction.ca/information_centre/photo_gallery/surrey_.php

[hollywoodnorth]

Thank you sir ... May I have some more

[cornholio]

Looks a bit thin. Does it have proper merge lanes? Wide enough shoulders? What is the sped limit on sections with no lights? It better have a 90-100kmph speed limit for the stretches with no lights, looking at it it looks to be designed for 60-70kmph...better not be the case.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Looks a bit thin. Does it have proper merge lanes? Wide enough shoulders? What is the sped limit on sections with no lights? It better have a 90-100kmph speed limit for the stretches with no lights, looking at it it looks to be designed for 60-70kmph...better not be the case.

80 km/h with signalized intersections.....big mistake if you ask me. It should be a proper freeway with interchanges and a 90-100 km/h speed limit. Don't know why the ministry designs roads like highways to a rural arterial roadway..

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Just to put this discussion about preloading future interchanges into context...

Hwy 91 at 72nd was preloaded too, back in 1985. The preloading is still vaguely visible.

That roughly ties the time it took to finiish the south end of the Arthur Laing bridge. built !975, finally complete 2002.(?) Westview may hold the record, 37 years. (Crossing Hastings & Cassiar on the 135 tonight...it struck me that it's been over 20 years since that nightmare was replaced with the tunnel. Built for 6 lanes, eventually....one of the rare times we built with the future in mind.

[Mininari]

Well, at least most Vancouver drivers tend to push the speed limit by 10-15km/hr. That should maintaining operating speeds where one would expect them to be for the roadway. That doesn't happen with truckers as much, but I'd expect the SFPR to operate similar to the Mary Hill Bypass (and get frikkin' busy at rush hour).

The patently 'panicked' words coming out of the various mayors is grating on me a bit. One of the realities of intersections instead of interchanges on the SFPR is that will actually HELP control the traffic influx onto the Patullo Bridge. Traffic won't all be 'streaming' onto the bridge as it would be were the interchanges fully constructed.

Maybe it makes sense to hold off on the interchanges until the new Patullo is finished... the whole thing is going to be a mess pretty quick either way.... and that is what will drive more and more people to give up on the 'free option' and just use the new Port Mann Bridge.

More toll revenue for the province; and they defer cost of the SFPR interchanges. Once the Patullo Bridge is built and tolled, who is honestly going to go all the way to the Alex Fraser from Hwy 1 to avoid a toll? You'd burn twice as much in gas in the detour.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Well, at least most Vancouver drivers tend to push the speed limit by 10-15km/hr. That should maintaining operating speeds where one would expect them to be for the roadway. That doesn't happen with truckers as much, but I'd expect the SFPR to operate similar to the Mary Hill Bypass (and get frikkin' busy at rush hour).

The patently 'panicked' words coming out of the various mayors is grating on me a bit. One of the realities of intersections instead of interchanges on the SFPR is that will actually HELP control the traffic influx onto the Patullo Bridge. Traffic won't all be 'streaming' onto the bridge as it would be were the interchanges fully constructed.

Maybe it makes sense to hold off on the interchanges until the new Patullo is finished... the whole thing is going to be a mess pretty quick either way.... and that is what will drive more and more people to give up on the 'free option' and just use the new Port Mann Bridge.

More toll revenue for the province; and they defer cost of the SFPR interchanges. Once the Patullo Bridge is built and tolled, who is honestly going to go all the way to the Alex Fraser from Hwy 1 to avoid a toll? You'd burn twice as much in gas in the detour.

Pattullo is already at capacity today, has been for the last decade or so. YOU can't GET more traffic on that bridge. Sure it will be busy for the first day or so, but people trying to save money will just say "SCREW it" and keep using the Port Mann. It won't be worth saving 6 bucks or whatever a day.

[renthefinn]

There's only one intersection replacing what was originally planned as an interchange on the project. Although there are other intersections on the alignment that were never planned as interchanges, at the eastern sections there are two. Tannery will be interchange, and Sunbury will be intersection, though it's ready to go for an interchange when the time comes.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Pattullo is already at capacity today, has been for the last decade or so. YOU can't GET more traffic on that bridge. Sure it will be busy for the first day or so, but people trying to save money will just say "SCREW it" and keep using the Port Mann. It won't be worth saving 6 bucks or whatever a day.

Not during the rush, no. It will see an increase of off-peak travel, though... as the time savings won't be that significant for those not in a hurry.

Going from Vancouver to Langley, you'll see an increase in use of the Boundary/Alex Fraser/Hwy 10 route. I plan on using that off-peak assuming they don't remove or reduce tolls off-peak (which I REALLY think they SHOULD do)

[red-paladin]

I emailed and asked about the lack of final design PDFs on the website:

Final design maps are currently under review and will be posted to the project website as soon as possible. You can also view updated aerial photos showcasing the most recent construction of the SFPR at www.sfprconstruction.ca. Please keep checking the website for project updates as we are hoping to have maps up shortly.

[Gordon]

i wonder why the porvincial government doesnot put a proper interchange & &72nd h way 91.
that would shure speed up traffic, creating a far better traffic flow.

[Stingray2004]

According to Delta, three important pieces of necessary highway infrastructure upgrades are:

1. Hwy 91/72nd Avenue;

2. Hwy 99/Ladner Trunk Rd. interchange;

3. George Massey Tunnel (Delta has even commissioned a study of same to persuade the province to upgrade same);

The Hwy 91/72nd Avenue intersection upgrade proposed by MoT was opposed by Delta as it would prevent 72nd Ave. WB to Hwy 91 SB movements (albeit that represents only 5% of the 72nd Ave. traffic at that locale).

Now my ears perked up this week when MK Delta Lands Group made an application to Delta to amend the land use designation of an 89-acre parcel that borders the east side of Hwy 91 between 72nd Ave and 64th Ave.

http://www.corp.delta.bc.ca/assets/CPD/PDF/MKDL_ContextSummaryMaps.pdf

I suspect that whatever happens to that parcel, the developer will be expected to cough up some funds to permit a full movement Hwy 91/72nd Ave. interchange down the road.

Currently, the intersection has a Level of Service (LOS) D.

http://www.corp.delta.bc.ca/assets/CPD/P...Site%20Servicing%20Summaries%20FINAL.pdf

http://www.corp.delta.bc.ca/EN/main/municipal/323/27003/mklands.html#overview

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I emailed and asked about the lack of final design PDFs on the website:

Intersections at Bridgeview Drive, 176 street/104 Avenue/ Golden Ears Way.

Tannery Road will be kept as an interchange, and Old Yale Road will go underneath the SFPR.

The intersection with 176 Street, 104 Avenue, and Golden Ears Way Connector is going to be horrible.

Because of the angle, they're actually building a right turn loop ramp that makes you actually drive through the intersection, around a loop ramp, and then through the SAME intersection as before.

Plus, they're designing EVERYTHING to an 80 km/h design speed. Curves, lanes, etc. It's a glorified arterial road, with no left hand shoulder...you drive directly beside the centre barrier.

[trofirhen]

Interesting pictures, thank you.
I think I saw in several shots, overpasses and underpasses being built. And this isn't a designated freeway as such, either! Hey, maybe Vancouver is catching up with the rest of the developed world, and not putting stop lights at so many major intersections, but using overpass and underpass ramps and tunnels instead. Praise the Lord!

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Interesting pictures, thank you.
I think I saw in several shots, overpasses and underpasses being built. And this isn't a designated freeway as such, either! Hey, maybe Vancouver is catching up with the rest of the developed world, and not putting stop lights at so many major intersections, but using overpass and underpass ramps and tunnels instead. Praise the Lord!

It was supposed to be completely grade separated, but they MOT "ran out of money" and converted 3-4 interchanges into at grade intersections...

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Plus, they're designing EVERYTHING to an 80 km/h design speed. Curves, lanes, etc. It's a glorified arterial road, with no left hand shoulder...you drive directly beside the centre barrier.

I recall one engineer stating that the design speed will actually be 90 km/hr east of the Pattullo Bridge albeit will still be posted at 80 km/hr along the entire length.

I do agree with you, though, in that a minimum 100 km/hr design speed should have been adopted and the cost of same is not that much more.

In any event, even with an 80 km/hr design speed, with so many built in redundancies, one can easily drive same at 110/120 km/hr if one wanted to. Same with the current GEB 60 km/hr Connector, which everyone seems to drive at 90 - 100 km/hr.

The final product will have a cross-section much like the current Hwy 17 - with 3.7 m lane widths, maximum 4 m medians and 3 m outside shoulders.

Funny thing, the new Hwy 17 shield EB on Hwy 1 has been covered over with a small square green covering leaving the rest of the sign and Hwy 15 route marker visible. Wonder what that's all about?!

[GMasterAres]

Building interchanges on an already existing freeway after the fact is ALWAYS more expensive. This is what happens with politicians make the decisions not engineers and people with actual degrees.

They don't care that if and when they replace the intersections with interchanges 5-300 years down the road it will cost 10 times what it would just doing it now when the highway is being constructed because they will be retired by then not in office and collecting their pension in London England.

Just do some looking up as to how much it cost to do the interchange at the Queensborough Bridge compared to had they done it when that stretch was first built more than a decade earlier even with inflation adjustment.

Let's face it, even Gateway Highway 1 expansion would probably have cost quite a few millions cheaper if they could just shut the entire HIghway 1 down for 2 years vs needing to constantly divert traffic here and there, pave temporary roads, work out short schedules to accomodate traffic meaning construction takes 3 times as long to do, you name it. Now for sure there is nothing they can do with Gateway, but with SFPR it is BRAND NEW! There is no excuse.

If the government, ANY government, was truely worried about cutting costs, they would build those interchanges right now. But it is just lip service. Always lip service.

"We need to tighten our belts!!"
"Ok so start making smart financial decisions"
"What? No... that might hurt me getting elected next time."
*face palm*

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

According to Delta, three important pieces of necessary highway infrastructure upgrades are:

1. Hwy 91/72nd Avenue;

2. Hwy 99/Ladner Trunk Rd. interchange;

3. George Massey Tunnel (Delta has even commissioned a study of same to persuade the province to upgrade same);

The Hwy 91/72nd Avenue intersection upgrade proposed by MoT was opposed by Delta as it would prevent 72nd Ave. WB to Hwy 91 SB movements (albeit that represents only 5% of the 72nd Ave. traffic at that locale).

Now my ears perked up this week when MK Delta Lands Group made an application to Delta to amend the land use designation of an 89-acre parcel that borders the east side of Hwy 91 between 72nd Ave and 64th Ave.

http://www.corp.delta.bc.ca/assets/CPD/PDF/MKDL_ContextSummaryMaps.pdf

I suspect that whatever happens to that parcel, the developer will be expected to cough up some funds to permit a full movement Hwy 91/72nd Ave. interchange down the road.

Does Delta have a point? Is it worth the extra cost to include w/b 72nd to s/b 91? 5%? Google shows it's 1.6 km from 72nd to 64th.. surely that 5% can drive the extra mile to 64th http://g.co/maps/9qmmu

I remember walking on the Alex Fraser opening day fall 1986... Since then, the East/West connector (worst. name. ever.) opened, the 91/91A intersection has been redone, twice. the 2nd Annacis Channel bridge was built, Howes Street was grade separated, but the light at 72nd Ave remains. 26 years later. Why do BC freeways take generations to complete? 1986..That even predates the Simpsons!

[Stingray2004]

Interesting tidbit regarding the Tilbury and Sunbury intersections:

Gateway staff provided an overview of the traffic modeling process and predictions for the Tilbury and Sunbury areas.

The report found that "traffic modeling indicates that the Tilbury intersection will fail in 20 - 25 years, and the Sunbury intersection will fail in 10 - 15 years, meaning that full interchanges will have to be constructed in order to ensure an efficient traffic flow."

Source: http://www.delta-optimist.com/business/Halfway+mark+SFPR+project/6452208/story.html#ixzz1shiPI4nd

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Interesting tidbit regarding the Tilbury and Sunbury intersections:




Source: http://www.delta-optimist.com/business/Halfway+mark+SFPR+project/6452208/story.html#ixzz1shiPI4nd

Whose putting $$$ that it will take less than 5 years for volumes to fail?