The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

It does not matter if it is at grade. At the end of the day it still operates as a grade separated system (except downtown) with full priority and barriers from other traffic and pedestrians. And by barriers I mean more than a raised trackbed as in Toronto.

Oh no, poor Scarborough again. Why can't it get what the core has? Why?

I can tell you why but everybody else has been doing that and you just don't listen.

[Andrewjm3D]

Double post, wanted to make sure robtoronto saw it.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I just found out that the Sheppard LRT is most likely going to operate as a streetcar in the fact that it will have stop request buttons, and only stop at stops if people request or are waiting.
That right there tells you this is not rapid transit, but just upgraded local transit..

LOL, there you go again sounding like Rob Ford, Toronto's chief idiot, liar, and fear monger. If there is nobody at a stop, and if nobody needs off the TRAIN, then why should it stop? I'd call that sensible wouldn't you? You're trying to make it sound like it's going to have as many stops as a streetcar or bus line which is so far from the truth it's not funny.

Enjoy Transit City Mike, your mayor screwed you out of a subway. Seriously, you keep repeating BS, no matter how many times you say something over and over again it doesn't make it true.

I just found out that the Subway plan, had no plan, and no money. Oh wait anybody with a brain knew that years ago.

[Nouvellecosse]

I am 100% in favour of subways, but I'm 100% against wasting money on Sheppard. How the hell is it such a great benefit to Scarborough to have a subway connecting them to the Yonge line half way across town? Not only is that a pretty big diversion for someone trying to get downtown, but that line is already crowded enough. Why do we want to keep funneling more people onto it?

Toronto only has four subway routes feeding downtown. Two arms of the B-D line and two of the YUS line. To contrast that with Chicago, a municipality with similar population and density, its system has 9 routes feeding downtown: Two arms each of the blue, green, and red lines, and one each of the pink, orange, and brown. And that system only has 2/3 Toronto's ridership!

What is really needed is a new subway line approximately 35-40km long going from Queen downtown with two arms extending to the northeast and the northwest. It would fulfill the function of relieving both streets like Finch since people would not be traveling so far on these suburban corridors to get to Yonge, as well as relieving Yonge itself. And it would provide a much closer subway to downtown for people in Scarborough so that once they got to the nearest station, no further transfer would be needed to get downtown.

It obviously would be expensive at north of $10 billion, but so are the current transit plans. And honestly, it's so silly to look at these overcrowded suburban buses and think that relief is needed to be built on these corridors just because that's where people are traveling now, when the only reason so many are traveling on them is because the closest subway is so damn far. I mean, when the stop-gap work arounds are just as expensive as solving the root cause, yet people still only focus on workarounds, you know you have a problem.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Onto the LRT thing. I just found out that the Sheppard LRT is most likely going to operate as a streetcar in the fact that it will have stop request buttons, and only stop at stops if people request or are waiting.
That right there tells you this is not rapid transit, but just upgraded local transit.

Sure it may run on a standard stop request system.. but the stops are on average 400+ meters apart!! All downtown streetcar routes which you love to compare the Sheppard LRT with are between 200-250 meters apart.

This isn't some sort of LRT-cult thing as you like to portray it as time and time again, it's simple facts. Your obsession with wanting a subway to Scarborough has completely clouded any logical knowledge of transit you do have. You know better than this, and I know you do. Stop making it a personal fight of you vs. the world.

[The_Architect]

The 2 lines Toronto needs right now are the DRL and a Pearson line, but the latter has extremely little chance of happening.

After that is the Eglinton Line, then the Finch Line, then the Sheppard extension.

In no universe should the Sheppard extension get priority.

[jmt18325]

Even though it will be more expensive, the air - rail link lessened the need for a Pearson line at this time.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

The 2 lines Toronto needs right now are the DRL and a Pearson line, but the latter has extremely little chance of happening.

A commutter link to Pearson could be cheap. $200M for a new people mover connection to Woodbine and frequent GO service in the Georgetown corridor would be sufficient. Every bit as good as JFK or EWR connections.

A high capacity TTC fare to Pearson is a bit more ($1.1B to extend Eglinton IIRC?)

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

A transit advocate who is very involved in the whole project told me that.
The stopping pattern however I guess has not been finalized by the TTC yet.

I'm just going to ignore Andrew's post and focus on this.

Hopefully the source is wrong, but if they are indeed correct, this would be the final nail in the coffin for the "rapid transit" charade. One of the defining characteristics of true rapid transit is precise scheduling and defined stops.

Originally Posted by The_Architect

The 2 lines Toronto needs right now are the DRL and a Pearson line, but the latter has extremely little chance of happening.

After that is the Eglinton Line, then the Finch Line, then the Sheppard extension.

In no universe should the Sheppard extension get priority.

I agree, the fact that this city doesn't have a true rapid transit connection to the airport is just downright pathetic. "World Class" indeed. The Pearson connection really ought to be folded into a grade-separated Eglinton line, which would then connect to a DRL of some sort.

I really don't care if it takes 15 years to get started on the Sheppard subway, as long as something proper and usable in the long term is put into place. No point wasting money on gussied-up surface routes. There is a reason why the Piccadilly Line is still in use after 100 years, even all the way out to Hounslow and Hammersmith; it was a good long-term investment.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I really don't care if it takes 15 years to get started on the Sheppard subway, as long as something proper and usable in the long term is put into place. No point wasting money on gussied-up surface routes. There is a reason why the Piccadilly Line is still in use after 100 years, even all the way out to Hounslow and Hammersmith; it was a good long-term investment.

most of the streetcar system is over 100 years old

[1331Massi]

Miketoronto, you're such a troll. All you have been doing for the past 5 pages is crapping out the same arguments over and over again. This is pissing me off because I'm a Montrealer and I'm actually reading every single stubborn post of yours.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

the transformation of the GO Train network into a metropolitan rail system like you see in Australian cities.

You forgot to mention that there are no subways in Australia, so the train system has to fill that role, too.

Originally Posted by isaidso

As I stated before, the transit discussion in Toronto has become polarizing, toxic, and a joke. It's looking more and more like the circus we see down south. I don't see any constructive discussion happening at City Hall or on this thread; just people hurling insults back and forth, people jumping to conclusions, and people looking for a fight.

Maybe I'll check back on this thread in a year or 2.

YOU hit the nail right. The Toronto LRT/subway debate is insane. Montreal's rapid transit network, 2012:



Montreal's rapid transit network, circa 2020:



The main reason for this is not our corrupt politicians, but the idea that the metro has to be expanded underground because it runs on tires, which Sapporo already proved wrong. You Torontonians should be glad to be getting anything.

[Nouvellecosse]

The difference of course being that Montreal already has a metro system as large as Toronto's despite being a much smaller city. It is not in desperate need of metro expansion at this point. It could use it, but that's also the case for most cities.

Besides, when Montreal does decide to expand the metro, it is not as important for it to emerge above ground to save money considering the underground system costs only 1/2 as much per KM as Toronto's underground system. At $300-$350 million per km, building underground subway in Toronto is toxic and can only be justified in the densest and busiest of areas. At a comparatively paltry $150 million per km, building MTL metro underground seems like a bargain.

[Alexcaban]

Originally Posted by 1331Massi

Miketoronto, you're such a troll. All you have been doing for the past 5 pages is crapping out the same arguments over and over again. This is pissing me off because I'm a Montrealer and I'm actually reading every single stubborn post of yours.



You forgot to mention that there are no subways in Australia, so the train system has to fill that role, too.



YOU hit the nail right. The Toronto LRT/subway debate is insane. Montreal's rapid transit network, 2012:



Montreal's rapid transit network, circa 2020:



The main reason for this is not our corrupt politicians, but the idea that the metro has to be expanded underground because it runs on tires, which Sapporo already proved wrong. You Torontonians should be glad to be getting anything.

Actually the plan by 2020 is to have the Blue Line extend east towards Anjou, a northern extension of the Orange Line to Bois-Franc and Laval, and a South Shore extension of the Yellow Line to Longueil.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/montreacuteals-2020-vision.html

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I'm just going to ignore Andrew's post and focus on this.

Good continue to ignore the facts and live in your fantasy world where a subway is the only form of transit that should be invested in. It really must be upsetting for the two of you, four of you if you include Rob Ford that Millers Transit City is back in motion.

All you guys do is repeat the same tired arguments used by Rob and his uneducated redneck crew.

LRT is a streetcar
LRT will turn Sheppard into St Clair
LRT costs more to run
LRT is slow
LRT will kill businesses
LRT can't handle the future numbers
LRT doesn't last as long
LRT is a band-aid solution
LRT is not a world class city mode of transit

All lies, all nowhere near true, all have been proven false and are backed with studies and numbers.

My favorite one you all keep using is Look at Madrid they built subway, ok - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15734280

It's obvious that trying to explain the facts to you and mike so you can understand why subways are not the end all and be all of transit is about as impossible as keeping a doughnut out of Rob Fords mouth.

I will admit it's fun watching the two of you get all bent out of shape, though I rarely go through your entire posts because they read like the Toronto Sun.


Transit City is Back!


Winner


Big Fat Loser (2 years 9 months until he's gone)

[Rico Rommheim]

The Montreal metro is great, but we have a lot to learn from Vancouver's sky train. I rode it again today just for kicks a d it is thoroughly enjoyable experience, especially if you get a chance to sit in the front seat of the first car.

Plus, you missed your train? No problem
The next one is in 2 minutes...in the middle of the afternoon...


My view of an ideal Montreal metro system would be to combine our existing system of underground tunnels with a Vancouver style elevated train that shoots you deep into the suburbs.

[agrant]

Commuter rail's not an option? Skytrain works to a point. I don't know if you'd want to build lines "deep into the suburbs". You need some population density. For example, you wouldn't build skytrain out to Maple Ridge or Langely.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Good continue to ignore the facts and live in your fantasy world where a subway is the only form of transit that should be invested in...

Just curious, what average speed are you expecting from these LRT routes, and what is the station spacing?

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by agrant

Commuter rail's not an option? Skytrain works to a point. I don't know if you'd want to build lines "deep into the suburbs". You need some population density. For example, you wouldn't build skytrain out to Maple Ridge or Langely.

Well, Laval is a city with double Burnaby's population,And yet had only 3 rapid transit stations, none of which are used to commute within Laval. Sure Laval's pop density is low (about 1600) but with efficient rapid transit like Burnaby's, this could change.

The tragedy with greater Montreal's transit system, Is that there is no system. Greater Vancouver had trans link, we have a dozen and more transit orgs.

In sum, greater Montreal's transit system is obsessed with getting workers from suburbs to downtown offices and back. And nothing more.

[Robertpuant]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Well, Laval is a city with double Burnaby's population,And yet had only 3 rapid transit stations, none of which are used to commute within Laval. Sure Laval's pop density is low (about 1600) but with efficient rapid transit like Burnaby's, this could change.

The tragedy with greater Montreal's transit system, Is that there is no system. Greater Vancouver had trans link, we have a dozen and more transit orgs.

In sum, greater Montreal's transit system is obsessed with getting workers from suburbs to downtown offices and back. And nothing more.

Rico, Burnaby is way closer to dt Vancouver than Laval is to Montreal's. As for going from a suburb to another, you're right to say the metro and trains don't don't do this particular job, buses do it.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by logan5

Just curious, what average speed are you expecting from these LRT routes, and what is the station spacing?

I'm trying to locate them for you.

Off the top of my head the stops are much closer then a subway (no where near as close as streetcar stops). The speed is slower then a subway. But what the subway people don't want you to consider is travel time to these very distant subway stations. Most people will need to take a bus to get to them adding to their travel time.

As soon as I find the numbers I'll post them for you. They will be unbiased making subways look better, but keep in mind they don't reflect current density or the future density of Scarborough that just won't merit a subway over an LRT. One pro-subway councilor stated that Toronto was to grow 10 million over the next 25 years. These are the types of facts they base their judgement on. The actual expected growth for T.O in 25 years is more or less 3,000,000.

[logan5]

Thank-you.