HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4761  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 4:43 AM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162


I think you could have support (or lack of outrage anyway) between 16th and McKnight, for something half that height with the occasional development of that height, but north of that the quality and shape of housing adjacent to Centre markedly improves, and you would probably run into trouble there. I'm sure the fact that Tuxedo and Mount Pleasant usually run about 50:50 owner occupied to renters, particularly Tuxedo Park which a few years ago was 60:40 rental:owner, helps in that regard.

I think you could have something like this
http://maps.google.com/?ll=51.074116,-11...olbFMteBZmsQoqmw&cbp=12,247.94,,0,-12.75

(but hopefully a better style) built all the way from 16th to Mcknight with nary a peep, probably even 50% taller. As for structures the height of what you showed as an example, I could see something like that at major intersections (16th/centre, Mcknight/centre). But north of McKnight would get iffy.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4762  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:37 AM
Bassic Lab Bassic Lab is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post


I think you could have support (or lack of outrage anyway) between 16th and McKnight, for something half that height with the occasional development of that height, but north of that the quality and shape of housing adjacent to Centre markedly improves, and you would probably run into trouble there. I'm sure the fact that Tuxedo and Mount Pleasant usually run about 50:50 owner occupied to renters, particularly Tuxedo Park which a few years ago was 60:40 rental:owner, helps in that regard.

I think you could have something like this
http://maps.google.com/?ll=51.074116,-11...olbFMteBZmsQoqmw&cbp=12,247.94,,0,-12.75

(but hopefully a better style) built all the way from 16th to Mcknight with nary a peep, probably even 50% taller. As for structures the height of what you showed as an example, I could see something like that at major intersections (16th/centre, Mcknight/centre). But north of McKnight would get iffy.
I think that north of McKnight is the segment where limited tower developments could actually be built in the future. There could theoretically be a major core around the area of 16 Ave (it could really become a secondary downtown after the primary one becomes nearly built out in the not too distant future) but beyond that, I would think that the area south of McKnight would generally be restricted to low/mid rise development. It is only north of McKnight, specifically the Superstore at 72 Ave and the Beddington Town Centre at Beddington Boulevard, where large enough commercial sites exist that towers could be accommodated with minimal affect on the existing residential building stock. There would still likely be opposition but it would be more akin to the opposition to University City @ Brentwood TOD/Ovation @ Westgate/London @ Hertitage as opposed to the kind of opposition that would come from dropping a tower in a residential area. That is to say, people might complain but it would happen anyway.

That said, it really doesn't take much in the way of single family homes being turned into low rise apartments to significantly increase an areas density. Already, some of the communities along Centre street have a significant proportion of their housing units in the form of apartments despite the vast majority of their land area being dedicated to SFHs. When a 50' lot means either a single house or a four story apartment with 16 units it is easy to see that density can increase substantially with limited change to a neighbourhood's character. A community with 500 housing units, all in the form of SFHs, can end up with 1250 units by only redeveloping 10% of the building stock into small apartment buildings that can easily fit into the area with limited opposition. That easily doubles the population of a neighbourhood without anyone really even noticing. Combine that effect with the rest of the housing stock slowly being replaced with infills at the rate of two new SFHs for every old one, and it isn't very hard to see a major population boom in the area between Crowchild, McKnight, Deerfoot, and the Bow River. I just don't think it would be that hard to turn the current 150 000 people that live in the area into 300 000 or more people. Indeed, it will likely happen eventually no matter what we do. If/when it does, the existing bus system (given that the road system is already essentially maxed out) will not be able to cope with the demand.
     
     
  #4763  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 7:21 AM
Policy Wonk's Avatar
Policy Wonk Policy Wonk is offline
Inflatable Hippo
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Suburban Las Vegas
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassic Lab View Post
I think that north of McKnight is the segment where limited tower developments could actually be built in the future. There could theoretically be a major core around the area of 16 Ave (it could really become a secondary downtown after the primary one becomes nearly built out in the not too distant future) but beyond that, I would think that the area south of McKnight would generally be restricted to low/mid rise development. It is only north of McKnight, specifically the Superstore at 72 Ave and the Beddington Town Centre at Beddington Boulevard, where large enough commercial sites exist that towers could be accommodated with minimal affect on the existing residential building stock. There would still likely be opposition...
That would be like saying the Tet Offensive was "opposition", the type of intensification you are calling for would unleash NIMBY demagoguery on an unprecedented scale, which gets back to the very reason I think a Centre Street subway is ridiculous. The required levels of intensification simply aren't possible because the forces it would unleash in opposition are just too great. It is what dooms PlanIt to irrelevance.

If you want to be that aggressive having a "minimal affect on the existing residential building stock" doesn't help your cause in the slightest. It is just more NIMBY's. Why do you think "urban renewal" programs obliterated everything in their path?
__________________
Public Administration 101: Keep your mouth shut until obligated otherwise and don't get in public debates with housewives.
     
     
  #4764  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 2:25 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162
I would suggest the odds of the needed densification happening along Centre st, particularly north of McKnight, could depend on whether the majority of those houses are owner occupied or rental units, and to a lesser extent, whether the ones one lot back from those lots are also, since I think for most people Centre is considered a bit of a throughfare, the opposition would likely be from directly adjacent home owners. I don't have the answer to that though.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4765  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 3:08 PM
fusili's Avatar
fusili fusili is offline
Retrofit Urbanist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,692
You could easily double or triple the population of NC Calgary south of Beddington without resorting to 30 storey towers. Like I said before, rezoning every R-C2 into M-CG (townhouse) and every R-C1 into R-C2 is effectively doubling the potential density. Combined with zoning key corridors (Centre, Edmonton Trail, 4th Street, 20th Avenue, McKnight, Northmount, 64th) into mid-rise high density (8 storeys or less, which already occurs on Centre Street anyway), and you can considerably increase the density of the area.

Paris achieves 20K people per square kilometre using nothing but 8 storey buildings (albeit, every building is 8 stories essentially).
__________________
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
     
     
  #4766  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 4:07 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162


I could see "The Bridges" type buildings being accepted all the way from 16th to Beddington, with taller ones at some traffic light controlled intersections.
Might have some issues from McKnight - 60th and from Beddington Drive - Beddington Trail, but I just noticed from 60th - 78th is almost all 'duplexes' (semi-attached) which are likely mostly rentals. you might want to go underground between Beddington Drive - Beddington Trail anyway.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4767  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 4:23 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post


I could see "The Bridges" type buildings being accepted all the way from 16th to Beddington, with taller ones at some traffic light controlled intersections.
Might have some issues from McKnight - 60th and from Beddington Drive - Beddington Trail, but I just noticed from 60th - 78th is almost all 'duplexes' (semi-attached) which are likely mostly rentals. you might want to go underground between Beddington Drive - Beddington Trail anyway.
Toronto Avenues (or maybe a bit more dense) strategy + nodes around stations? Yes please!
     
     
  #4768  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:12 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162
Although I think there's more opportunity for density than Policy Wonk, I still think some of his comments about the cost vs benefit issues with running up Centre has some merit.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4769  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:12 PM
Wooster's Avatar
Wooster Wooster is offline
Round Head
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
You could easily double or triple the population of NC Calgary south of Beddington without resorting to 30 storey towers. Like I said before, rezoning every R-C2 into M-CG (townhouse) and every R-C1 into R-C2 is effectively doubling the potential density. Combined with zoning key corridors (Centre, Edmonton Trail, 4th Street, 20th Avenue, McKnight, Northmount, 64th) into mid-rise high density (8 storeys or less, which already occurs on Centre Street anyway), and you can considerably increase the density of the area.

Paris achieves 20K people per square kilometre using nothing but 8 storey buildings (albeit, every building is 8 stories essentially).
Toronto's bloor-danforth line exists with very fiew highrises along most of its length. Just a relatively dense low-rise urban fabric. You're right going to R-C2 and M-CG with some pods of higher density at certain locations would be enough.
     
     
  #4770  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:22 PM
fusili's Avatar
fusili fusili is offline
Retrofit Urbanist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Toronto's bloor-danforth line exists with very fiew highrises along most of its length. Just a relatively dense low-rise urban fabric. You're right going to R-C2 and M-CG with some pods of higher density at certain locations would be enough.
Well, IMO, pretty much every inner city grid-structured residential district (Killarney, Rosscarrock, Tuxedo, Rosedale, Greater Forest Lawn, Altadore etc etc) should be M-CG (instead of R-C2), every R-1 should be R-1s (to allow secondary suites), and every R-C1 should be R-C2 (semi detached dwellings should be allowed in all inner City districts). Basically we should be zoning everything up a single step. Just my opinion though.
__________________
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
     
     
  #4771  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:08 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Well, IMO, pretty much every inner city grid-structured residential district (Killarney, Rosscarrock, Tuxedo, Rosedale, Greater Forest Lawn, Altadore etc etc) should be M-CG (instead of R-C2), every R-1 should be R-1s (to allow secondary suites), and every R-C1 should be R-C2 (semi detached dwellings should be allowed in all inner City districts). Basically we should be zoning everything up a single step. Just my opinion though.
I would be ok with deciding that each community needs to implement density equivalent to upping every zone one step, but then letting the community decide how to implement it, such as upping every zone one step, or upping a portion of the community to very high density, or something in between.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4772  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:18 PM
fusili's Avatar
fusili fusili is offline
Retrofit Urbanist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I would be ok with deciding that each community needs to implement density equivalent to upping every zone one step, but then letting the community decide how to implement it, such as upping every zone one step, or upping a portion of the community to very high density, or something in between.
A few charettes use a similar type of tool, where a certain amount of units need to be added, and they can be apartments (mid-rise or high rise), townhouses, duplexes etc etc. People are given differently coloured "blocks" and then they decide how to arrange everything.
__________________
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
     
     
  #4773  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:31 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
A few charettes use a similar type of tool, where a certain amount of units need to be added, and they can be apartments (mid-rise or high rise), townhouses, duplexes etc etc. People are given differently coloured "blocks" and then they decide how to arrange everything.
I figure that way communities won't feel as much like the city is forcing on them what their community will look like, they instead have some choice. Hell, even have an 'opt out' option in return for higher property taxes or something. In theory, it could be a density transfer: they can buy density in another community which they pay for with their taxes, whereas another community could increase density beyond what is asked, and sell that to a community which doesn't want to, with a decrease in the selling community's taxes.

Another option could be to set a standard of units per acre size of community (- parks, - institutional etc), and then this goes into some sort of overlay tax which can be in the positive if the community doesn't meet the goal, or in the negative if they surpass it, etc.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4774  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 7:31 PM
fusili's Avatar
fusili fusili is offline
Retrofit Urbanist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I figure that way communities won't feel as much like the city is forcing on them what their community will look like, they instead have some choice. Hell, even have an 'opt out' option in return for higher property taxes or something. In theory, it could be a density transfer: they can buy density in another community which they pay for with their taxes, whereas another community could increase density beyond what is asked, and sell that to a community which doesn't want to, with a decrease in the selling community's taxes.

Another option could be to set a standard of units per acre size of community (- parks, - institutional etc), and then this goes into some sort of overlay tax which can be in the positive if the community doesn't meet the goal, or in the negative if they surpass it, etc.
Definitely creative ideas, but all but impossible given provincial legislation and other legal ramifications.
__________________
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
     
     
  #4775  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 7:57 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Definitely creative ideas, but all but impossible given provincial legislation and other legal ramifications.
Legislation was made to be changed
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Heritage Watch - Forums
     
     
  #4776  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:11 AM
Policy Wonk's Avatar
Policy Wonk Policy Wonk is offline
Inflatable Hippo
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Suburban Las Vegas
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
You could easily double or triple the population of NC Calgary south of Beddington without resorting to 30 storey towers. Like I said before, rezoning every R-C2 into M-CG (townhouse) and every R-C1 into R-C2 is effectively doubling the potential density. Combined with zoning key corridors (Centre, Edmonton Trail, 4th Street, 20th Avenue, McKnight, Northmount, 64th) into mid-rise high density (8 storeys or less, which already occurs on Centre Street anyway), and you can considerably increase the density of the area.

Paris achieves 20K people per square kilometre using nothing but 8 storey buildings (albeit, every building is 8 stories essentially).
For all the trouble it would be, you might as well go for RM7 - the organized opposition probably wouldn't be dissimilar.

In any event many of those lots are too small to be zoned RC-2.
__________________
Public Administration 101: Keep your mouth shut until obligated otherwise and don't get in public debates with housewives.
     
     
  #4777  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:13 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,596
Staples on Wildrose infrastructure plan.
Quote:
Staples: Wildrose plan to axe transit funding a disaster for cities




By David Staples, edmontonjournal.com
...the Wildrose position on mass transit is strangely out of touch with city voters, as well as unfair to them. If it were implemented, it would be a major blow to Calgary and Edmonton.
...
GreenTrip is now building transit lines in Calgary and Edmonton, with $497 million going into the new NAIT LRT line.
...
Premier Alison Redford has gone on the record repeatedly to voice her support for GreenTrip funding. Indeed, in her commitment to mass transit, Redford comes across as strong and as fierce as Smith does on any of her own staunch policy stances.


But Smith on transit? Way too old school.
...
“It would be a monstrous inequity between urban and rural,” says Edmonton Coun. Don Iveson, head of the Capital Region Board’s transportation committee. “The province would no doubt continue to build highways in rural areas, but the LRT is the equivalent of a highway to Edmontonians and Calgarians as far as how many are able to get to work and get to school and get to markets on it.”
...
Perhaps the Wildrose has calculated that it can win Alberta by isolating the Edmonton region and taking Calgary and rural Alberta, the old Klein coalition. But I can’t see how taking an axe to C-Train funding is going be a winner in Calgary. Voters there recently elected an avid pro-transit mayor in Naheed Nenshi.
     
     
  #4778  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:41 AM
Policy Wonk's Avatar
Policy Wonk Policy Wonk is offline
Inflatable Hippo
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Suburban Las Vegas
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Toronto's bloor-danforth line exists with very fiew highrises along most of its length. Just a relatively dense low-rise urban fabric. You're right going to R-C2 and M-CG with some pods of higher density at certain locations would be enough.
I would not consider Bloor-Danforth an example in support of a Centre Street subway, I would consider it a cautionary tale. It is a relic of times when intensive infrastructure projects were nowhere near as expensive.
__________________
Public Administration 101: Keep your mouth shut until obligated otherwise and don't get in public debates with housewives.
     
     
  #4779  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 4:24 AM
Wooster's Avatar
Wooster Wooster is offline
Round Head
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,689
Not advocating a centre street subway (except up to about 20th avenue).
     
     
  #4780  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 4:26 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooster View Post
not advocating a centre street subway (except up to about 20th avenue).
+1.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:54 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.