The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

I love how you throw out statements without thinking how easily they can backfire on you. The line up to Finch was built during a time when the TTC was heavily subsided by all levels of government. It also acted as a major hub for all of York Region, a much more populated area then Durham east of Scarborough. Finch Station has the highest number of people going through it after Union.

When Finch was built, York hardly has anyone living in it yet. So that right there is not true. In fact, the subway went up to an area that looked much like Sheppard does today.

You make it sound as though for TTC riders in Scarborough driving is a choice. If it was and your argument was true than why are they not driving already with all those terrible(1-2) transfers? There number of transfers will not change with LRT. I suppose if an LRT goes in everybody in Scarborough will win the lottery and go out and buy cars.

Most TTC riders do have a choice. Yes there are people who use transit in Scarborough today, even though they could drive. There are residents like myself who just use the TTC and like it, and we put up with the stupid transfers.
But there are thousands more who are not using the TTC because of these needless transfers and the time it takes to get somewhere. Or there are people who stop using it the minute they can get their hands on a car.

Ridership on the SRT has actually declined over the past few years. This is party due to a higher amount of people riding east west buses to Yonge Street in off peak hours, like I do.
It is projected that eliminating the transfer at Kennedy could double subway ridership between Kennedy and STC.



[quote[
Sheppard and Kennedy
[/quote]

Funny you did not show the intersection looking the other way, which is full of high-rise towers, and more under construction.

Like really, it is clear you have an agenda of LRT.

I have no agenda or bias for transit technology. I look at what is best for each corridor, and the ridership stats, development, and regional network planning, show finishing the subway is the logical step.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Like really, it is clear you have an agenda of LRT.

I have no agenda or bias for transit technology. I look at what is best for each corridor, and the ridership stats, development, and regional network planning, show finishing the subway is the logical step.

haha cute, but you're ignoring the most important issue entirely which is money.

[Andrewjm3D]

It's tiring having to go through all of your comments and pointing out all of your holes.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

When Finch was built, York hardly has anyone living in it yet. So that right there is not true. In fact, the subway went up to an area that looked much like Sheppard does today.

When the finch line was built there was a huge population already there. Have you been? Have you ever heard of Thornhill? Aslo if you're saying nobody lived up there and Sheppard looks like it today are you admitting the area is low density? Please do some research about Thornhill before you say anything that stupid again. Aside from the population at the time, Yonge has and still is Toronto's main artery road and people used it as the main entry point to the city for many years and still do. Sheppard cannot and never will compare.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Most TTC riders do have a choice. Yes there are people who use transit in Scarborough today, even though they could drive. There are residents like myself who just use the TTC and like it, and we put up with the stupid transfers.
But there are thousands more who are not using the TTC because of these needless transfers and the time it takes to get somewhere. Or there are people who stop using it the minute they can get their hands on a car.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that. Those are Ford style facts and figures that we are all supposed to believe as the truth. Anti-LRT people such as yourself will be the first ones lining up to try it out.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Ridership on the SRT has actually declined over the past few years. This is party due to a higher amount of people riding east west buses to Yonge Street in off peak hours, like I do.
It is projected that eliminating the transfer at Kennedy could double subway ridership between Kennedy and STC.

More proof a DRL is needed first. Do you ever ride the yonge line during rush hour? Do you enjoy waiting 2-3 trains until you can cram on one?

Originally Posted by miketoronto

[quote[
Sheppard and Kennedy

Funny you did not show the intersection looking the other way, which is full of high-rise towers, and more under construction.
[/QUOTE]

You're the one arguing for a subway, how about you show how high density the area is, the heavily pedestrian used sidewalks. The tight urban streets that have only room for a few cars and parking. Please do show us. I know you'll show some pictures but a handful of suburban condo towers that clearly cater to people who would rather drive to their destination then hop on a subway line.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Like really, it is clear you have an agenda of LRT.

I have no agenda or bias for transit technology. I look at what is best for each corridor, and the ridership stats, development, and regional network planning, show finishing the subway is the logical step.

Like really, are you a 16 year old girl? Who says "Like"?

Had you read my earlier post I said they should have completed the Sheppard as a subway. Seeing as that would use up all the funds then it's best we leave it for now or if we must move forward then LRT it will have to be. I would love subways, and Eglignton in a perfect world would be. I unlike you and your one term idiot mayor live in a world of reality though and it's clear we can't upgrade transit across the city without using a variety of transit types such as LRT.

Hey maybe you can run for council again. Maybe you can ask Rob for advice and borrow his slogan of Honk for Subways to win your votes.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I have no agenda or bias for transit technology. I look at what is best for each corridor, and the ridership stats, development, and regional network planning, show finishing the subway is the logical step.

The Go Train route starting at Sheppard Ave E. seems like a good route for some kind of elevated rrt. It intersects with important arteries as well as the subway system on Danforth. And there would be a transfer-less ride into downtown Toronto, as well as providing some relief for the Yonge St. line. For less than the price of 7 km of subway extension, you could have 23 km of excellent Skytrain type service. The price tag for Toronto's subway extension is just staggering.

[miketoronto]

Thornhill was not that big when Finch opened, and the area surrounding the subway in North York was mostly single family homes. In fact Sheppard has more high density development than the North Yonge extension had at the time.

As for money, it is better to have quality than quantity. If all we could afford now is to do an underground Eglinton subway, then fine.

I do believe however that the money is there if we want. We are a G7 country, and one of the most privileged countries in the world. We can fund subway expansion if we want, and the citizens have spoken and said they would even pay more taxes to expand transit.

You can bet I would run for council on a platform of continuous subway expansion with steady funding for it. I would not be afraid to propose a special levy on property taxes to fund it.

If you are so worried about money, then why are you supporting over $1 billion in funding going for an LRT line which is going to offer almost no benefit over existing bus service?
We could a fraction of that and paint bus lanes on all major streets, and achieve the same results as LRT on Sheppard.
$1 billion seems like a lot of money to construct something that is not even going to bring rapid transit to an area of the city that needs it, and instead going to provide a fancy local service, which is already being met by bus service.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

$1 billion seems like a lot of money to construct something that is not even going to bring rapid transit to an area of the city that needs it, and instead going to provide a fancy local service, which is already being met by bus service.

This goes to show just how much, or how little you know about the numbers when it comes to LRT vs Buses. And Thornhill was a highly populated burb of the city. Complete with highrises, a mall, and a walkable downtown. So you may want to rethink your views on that node of the city. It also had plenty of vacant land near it to be developed into high density hoods. For that to happen along Sheppard, the city and developers would need to get people to move out of their single family homes to make way for more urban uses.

[dleung]

I can't believe i got baited by Miketoronto. Based on his low, low standards for subway justification, why isn't he arguing the case for multiple lines through Mississauga, Brampton and Etobicoke? That's a million and a half people with zero access to rapid transit for the forseeable future. It's only $350 million per km, just like when the Yonge line was originally built

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by dleung

I can't believe i got baited by Miketoronto. Based on his low, low standards for subway justification, why isn't he arguing the case for multiple lines through Mississauga, Brampton and Etobicoke? That's a million and a half people with zero access to rapid transit for the forseeable future. It's only $350 million per km, just like when the Yonge line was originally built

Ditto, some how some way I've fallen into the trap of trying to argue with a wall.

Is this built in Surrey yet? I love how LRT's will transform regions of our cities over the next few years. It will also help create new office hubs in satellite areas so not everybody needs to get into the core. Damn evil downtown left-wing pinkos. Eh Mike?

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

This goes to show just how much, or how little you know about the numbers when it comes to LRT vs Buses. And Thornhill was a highly populated burb of the city.

Your Thornhill argument makes no sense, as clearly more people live in the Greater Sheppard corridor than Thornhill.

I can't believe i got baited by Miketoronto. Based on his low, low standards for subway justification, why isn't he arguing the case for multiple lines through Mississauga, Brampton and Etobicoke? That's a million and a half people with zero access to rapid transit for the forseeable future. It's only $350 million per km, just like when the Yonge line was originally built

What we need is a Bloor subway expansion to Square One in Mississauga, compleation of the Sheppard subway, DRL subway, Eglinton subway, and the transformation of the GO Train network into a metropolitan rail system like you see in Australian cities. If we got a metropolitan rail network, then there might be some justification for building an elevated rail line through the Highway 7 corridor, into York Uni, and Brampton from Markham.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Ditto, some how some way I've fallen into the trap of trying to argue with a wall.

Is this built in Surrey yet? I love how LRT's will transform regions of our cities over the next few years. It will also help create new office hubs in satellite areas so not everybody needs to get into the core. Damn evil downtown left-wing pinkos. Eh Mike?

Call me a wall all you want. It is an honour, as I will never back down from a belief I have unless I can be proven that the other option is better.

At one of the transit meetings, someone really hit the nail right with similar comments like the one you made above.
Building an LRT is not going to all of a sudden transform suburban areas into funky Queen Street West's.
Just as with a subway, we will see the transformation of streets. But not every area of the city is going to be built to look like Queen Street or be trendy. Downtown is downtown for a reason, and it is stupid to expect our suburbs to be like that. Sheppard is growing just fine with the subway, and has some amazing development.

But building LRT's is not going to turn our suburban neighbourhoods into little downtown neighbourhoods. It will bring development, but so will a subway. And the obsession with using LRT's to fit some idelogy, that we can make every street just like Queen Street if it has an LRT, is stupid.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

At one of the transit meetings, someone really hit the nail right with similar comments like the one you made above.
Building an LRT is not going to all of a sudden transform suburban areas into funky Queen Street West's.
Just as with a subway, we will see the transformation of streets. But not every area of the city is going to be built to look like Queen Street or be trendy. Downtown is downtown for a reason, and it is stupid to expect our suburbs to be like that. Sheppard is growing just fine with the subway, and has some amazing development.

But building LRT's is not going to turn our suburban neighbourhoods into little downtown neighbourhoods. It will bring development, but so will a subway. And the obsession with using LRT's to fit some idelogy, that we can make every street just like Queen Street if it has an LRT, is stupid.

Who the hell said anything about making Sheppard like Queen Street? I don't see a dedicated, grade-separated ROW LRT line on Queen Street, I see a streetcar system that dates back to the 1920's. Nobody "hit the nail right". What they did hit on was the misinformation that LRT = downtown streetcar.

The real key here is since we're not "completing" the Sheppard Subway as originally planned, we need to ensure the LRT connection is done properly (ie, no stairs!!). This is what I believe is Mike's ultimate complaint, the poor connectivity at Kennedy Station. WHICH, I might add, can now be completely rebuilt since the funds haven't been diverted to the wasteful and stupid burying of the eastern 2/5th of the Eglinton line and an overkill Sheppard Subway extension.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I do believe however that the money is there if we want. We are a G7 country, and one of the most privileged countries in the world. We can fund subway expansion if we want, and the citizens have spoken and said they would even pay more taxes to expand transit.

Oh they have, have they?

Then why are taxes being cut by elected officials? Or people complain so loudly when they get raised?

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Call me a wall all you want. It is an honour, as I will never back down from a belief I have unless I can be proven that the other option is better.

In this one statement you sum up just how ignorant you are on the subject matter of public transit. You have proven that you believe only what you want to hear like the man you most likely voted in as mayor. And you've proven that you base decisions on misconceived ideology not on facts.

It's obvious how wrong you are if there is a thread on this forum where dleung and I agree.

ps- Sheppard will never be a Queen Street. Queen is still waiting on it's subway that was cancelled 80 years ago, what makes you think the outer burbs are more deserving? Also I hope the city builds windmills by the bluffs. I bet that will irk you as well.

[isaidso]

As I stated before, the transit discussion in Toronto has become polarizing, toxic, and a joke. It's looking more and more like the circus we see down south. I don't see any constructive discussion happening at City Hall or on this thread; just people hurling insults back and forth, people jumping to conclusions, and people looking for a fight.

Maybe I'll check back on this thread in a year or 2.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

What we need is a Bloor subway expansion to Square One in Mississauga, compleation of the Sheppard subway, DRL subway, Eglinton subway, and the transformation of the GO Train network into a metropolitan rail system like you see in Australian cities. If we got a metropolitan rail network, then there might be some justification for building an elevated rail line through the Highway 7 corridor, into York Uni, and Brampton from Markham.

Just make sure your money tree farm is producing enough for all that.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

ps- Sheppard will never be a Queen Street. Queen is still waiting on it's subway that was cancelled 80 years ago, what makes you think the outer burbs are more deserving?

Actually the Queen subway was cancelled about 60 years ago, mostly because traffic had shifted north to Bloor. 80 years ago there wasn't even any concrete proposal, so nice try. While Sheppard may never be a Queen Street anytime in the near future, it could very well be a carbon copy of Eglinton. Looking at photos taken along Sheppard from Yonge to Leslie in the mid-1990s to now, you can see that it has undergone substantial changes. I would post a few examples of mine but since my hard drive crashed last week I'm unable to do so

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Also I hope the city builds windmills by the bluffs. I bet that will irk you as well.

I agree. That would be a great way to wreck the bluffs, as if that stupid path and wavebreak won't do enough already.

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

The problem with that argument is that not matter what even looking down the line the purposed Subway lines in Toronto really make little sense. The purpose of these lines will likely remain a shuttle service which takes far flung commuters in the suburbs to there nearest Subway or GO Train station for a trip downtown or shuttle commuters from the subway or GO Train a short trip to their ultimate destination. (Remember the plan also includes two-way all day frequent GO train service as well)

This isn't 1973 anymore. Scarborough isn't some far-flung Eastern suburb, that would be something like Ajax or Oshawa. And Toronto can't keep treating it as some far-flung suburb because it has been an integral part of the city for some time. This kind of thinking will keep it isolated forever.

Meanwhile in London, we still don't have our LRT because it's not warranted given "current ridership projections". We still don't have our Ring Road because it's not warranted given "current traffic projections". If all you're doing is assuming today's numbers will hold for 20 years, and don't build anything at all, they will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[miketoronto]

I think Wharn's comments are right on the mark and a nice non-confrontational way to get his view across.


25 years ago, the subway was not extended to Scarborough Town Centre, because there was no way Scarborough was going to support subway service that far out.
Today, the SRT is beyond capacity, and people are looking back at that decision and saying "we made a big mistake".

If Toronto had unused railway corridors going east and west in the northern part of the city, then yes you could throw in LRT and it would be great.
But given Toronto's layout, there are going to be sections of the city that are going to require either subways or elevated tracks to bring rapid transit.

You do sort of build your destiny when it comes to transit in many regards. If you don't build a quality service and actually put it in service, of course it will never attract people.

There was actually a plan at one time to operate GO trains every 5 minutes using smaller trains, and one of the lines was going to operate via proposed Sheppard routing(either via Sheppard of the 401) from Oshawa out to Oakville, via Scarborough Centre and North York Centre.
Was that idea too stupid and not needed for current demands? No it was not. It was actually brilliant idea, and if was built, we would have a very different region today that would probably have a much higher quality of life, urban form, and less traffic.

Sheppard as with Eglinton are regionally significant crosstown routes. They are not to be looked at as local services designed just to move people in their corridors. Like the Bloor-Danforth subway they are meant to be regional crosstown routes that move people across the city fast and efficiently, while also laying the path for more intense and compact redevelopment.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I think Wharn's comments are right on the mark and a nice non-confrontational way to get his view across.

Of coarse you do seeing he's on your side.

Warn, you are right the Queen Line proposal is not 80 years old, it was first discussed in 1911 over 100 years ago, and not talked about again until 1941 so 70 years not sixty. What is your point though? The core has been waiting for transit upgrades longer then Scarborough, and it has the density to support it.

As for the Windmill comment, I laugh at your comment about them destroying the bluffs. There is absolutely no evidence to support that.

Isaidso - Until we have a non polarizing mayor, expect issues like this to be as divided as ever. He is a mayor that has no clue how to unit people and create a plan everybody can back. Hell he can't even create a plan that his supporters can back without ignoring facts and figures.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Of coarse you do seeing he's on your side.

Warn, you are right the Queen Line proposal is not 80 years old, it was first discussed in 1911 over 100 years ago, and not talked about again until 1941 so 70 years not sixty. What is your point though? The core has been waiting for transit upgrades longer then Scarborough, and it has the density to support it.

Which is absolutely true. I've never said that the DRL doesn't eventually need to be built, if anything it ought to be a high-priority project. What I don't agree with is the notion that Scarborough only deserves LRT and nothing better. I agree with mike, the SRT was a waste of time and money. Just a completely unmitigated disaster in retrospect: it's slow, over-used and introduces yet another inefficient transfer point. But when it was built it seemed like a good idea, partially because it was thought Scarborough didn't have the "density" to warrant a subway, partially because it was Metro tradition to give Scarborough the shaft.

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

As for the Windmill comment, I laugh at your comment about them destroying the bluffs. There is absolutely no evidence to support that.

You seem to have jumped to the conclusion "aha! An evil right-winger trying to find ways to oppose windmills! He's using the environmental argument to try and discredit them. Well, I won't let him get away with that!"

The thing is, you're wrong. There is more than one way to "wreck" the bluffs. The new rocks all along the bottom prevent the natural erosion process, so over time the very impressive cliffs will just flatten out into steep hills. That's one way of wrecking them. Another way of wrecking them is to erect windmills either in the lake or on top, spoiling one of the last great natural views in Toronto from either side. Think of it as a different kind of "wreck".

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Isaidso - Until we have a non polarizing mayor, expect issues like this to be as divided as ever. He is a mayor that has no clue how to unit people and create a plan everybody can back. Hell he can't even create a plan that his supporters can back without ignoring facts and figures.

Pretty much spot-on. It's a shame Ford is such an idiot, because we're at a critical point in time when we need to be thinking long and hard about what kind of transit we're going to build in this city. Instead of spouting "BUILD DEM DERR SUBWAYS", Ford should be asking people "do we really want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on LRT that's going to offer a pretty marginal upgrade over existing bus service, or do we want to spend tens of billions of dollars on a long-term heavy rail solution?"

The answer to that question is not easy or clear-cut at all, and neither side in this debate should be pretending that it is.

[Andrewjm3D]

This is old now seeing as Transit City is back, but too many people should still watch it to educate themselves.

• Video Link