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  #261  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2011, 8:55 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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This is very bad news as not only are others not coming but the young are leaving.
Sorry to parrot the previous post, but source, please? Is there actually a trend of young people leaving?

It seems like a very large population of young people and young families have moved here in recent years, albeit with large amounts of money.
     
     
  #262  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2011, 9:11 PM
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I think most forum members are smart enough to know that average prices for any given week do not the market reflect, the high end has been skewing the average price for years anyways. I certainly hope someone isn't implying that the average property is worth 13% less then it was. The recent stats are still pointing to reasonable YOY gains for the lower mainland.
Also looking forward to seeing SSIguys link to showing a net loss provincially as far as population goes, the stats I can find show the interprovince number as 0 not negative. Our international number is still quite positive even though it's lower then previous years, but note the number is down across the country not just us, pointing to the worldwide recession and other factors.
     
     
  #263  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2011, 9:42 PM
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Asian buying of Vancouver real estate underestimated

Last Updated: Thursday, July 07, 2011 | 02:05 PM EDT

While new data suggests that Asian foreign investment is not behind inflated home prices in Vancouver, a new report from CIBC World Markets Inc. Thursday argues that flaws in the numbers means foreign activity may actually be grossly underestimated.

Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist with CIBC, obtained sales data from Landcor Data Corp. that showed only 10% of foreign transactions in Vancouver over the past five years were actually worth more than $1-million, and the average price was just under $600,000.

Mr. Tal said there are reasons why the data, which also shows only 2.6% of overall sales in Vancouver over the past five years involved foreign cash, does not actually match up with the Asian foreign investment theory.

“There are many reasons to believe that a significant portion of what is perceived to be buying by offshore investors is, in fact, driven by Chinese immigrants that are integrated into the community but still maintain strong links to Mainland China, with many residing and working in China while their family establishes roots in B.C.,” he said.

The key flaw in Landcor’s data is that it is based on where property tax assessments are mailed, which would exclude offshore buying on behalf of children or local proxies. This means what little data there is on foreign activity may be seriously underreported.

So there is some truth to the working theory that foreign investors, particularly those from Mainland China, are looking for places to park their cash and have settled on Vancouver, which boasts a sizeable Asian community and a stable economic climate.

“Many, including Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney, point the finger at foreign — mainly Asian wealth — as the main driver here,” Mr. Tal said.

That said, the true reason for why Vancouver home prices jumped 25.7% year-over-year in May alone is likely more complex than any single theory.

The key then, is when the housing market will correct, and what that correction will look like.

“In Canada, a sharp and brisk tightening cycle is unlikely,” he said. This is because two triggers for a price crash, quick increases in interest rates and a high-risk mortgage market sensitive to changes, are not in play.

In particular, the weakest segment of the mortgage industry, households with both low equity positions and high debt-service ratios, accounts for only 4.6% of the total.

...


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/fp/story/2011/07/07/5065907.html#ixzz1RprR8Wci
     
     
  #264  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2011, 9:43 PM
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Immigration wave drove booming real estate market

By Martin van den Hemel - Richmond Review
Published: July 08, 2011 10:00 AM
Updated: July 11, 2011 8:22 AM


Real estate marketing guru George Wong isn’t surprised by findings of an Urban Futures study last month that claimed that only 0.4 per cent of the roughly 55,000 homes sold in Greater Vancouver last year were purchased by foreign investors.

The report, authored by economist Ryan Berlin, claimed that based on the addresses provided by purchasers, only 195 out of 55,512 home sales were to foreigners.

Wong, whose Magnum Properties has assisted with sales at Quintet on No. 3 Road and River Green next to the Richmond Olympic Oval, believes that a surge in immigration late last year and earlier this year—and not foreign investing—led to the property price boom.

A large proportion of these immigrants have been very wealthy, scooping up new homes in which to establish their families, while buying investment properties as well, Wong said.

The number of buyers holding foreign citizenship has been low at his two high-profile projects, accounting for only about 55 of the 500 condos and townhouses sold.

Wong said he doesn’t consider a landed immigrant to be a foreign, whether they are freshly minted or have been here for decades.

And therein may lie the confusion.

While the majority of sales may be to those of Asian descent, relatively few are non-residents.

And the vast bulk are investing locally because they are in the process of moving here upon immigration.

Wong’s experience seems to corroborate Berlin’s findings.

“There’s very little hard data out there that shows foreign investors are indeed having a significant impact on our real estate markets,” Berlin told Black Press last month.

But local realtor Austin Kay still remains doubtful, dubious that the 0.4 per cent figure is accurate.

Many foreign buyers already own real estate in the Lower Mainland, and are using those addresses when completing real estate transactions. Others are likely using local lawyers when making investments, masking their influence.

But informal information from realtors suggests the influence of foreign buyers is greater than the Urban Futures study indicates.

Rosario Setticasi, president of the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver, said an informal survey completed monthly by realtors suggests a more accurate figure for foreign buyers may be 3 to 3.5 per cent region wide. That number spiked to 7.3 per cent last month in the board’s region, which stretches from Whistler to Maple Ridge. And when focussing in on Richmond alone, that number could be still higher, though there’s no way to tell for sure, he said.

The board has observed the real estate market in Richmond and the west side of Vancouver heat up over the past six to eight months, he said.

Based on the 300 to 500 responses received from the pool of 10,000 realtors, the board is able to extrapolate those figures to reach a number estimating the impact of foreign investment on the region, he said.

Lily Korstanje, sales director at River Green, said her team is able to discern where buyers are coming from through the course of the sales process, when they get to know their clients better.

She said in order to accurately gauge the impact of offshore investing, there’s a need to define what constitutes a foreign investor.

Many buyers work in Asia but have their families living in the Lower Mainland and spend their earnings in Canada and have a local address.

Others are truly foreign investors with no local links, and conduct their business through a local lawyer, for example.

Then there are those who establish a numbered company in B.C.

Knowledge about where buyers are coming from is important for a realtor to be successful, Korstanje said, so she sees the benefit of looking into this issue more closely.

Trend spotting enables realtors to customize their marketing toward where the majority of their clients are coming from.

If there’s a sudden wave of investors from Russia, for example, that information would assist realtors in researching what types of homes and neighbourhoods they would like to live in.

Berlin said the study only looked at figures through the end of 2010.

If the situation has changed—there’s anecdotal evidence that the market heated up in Richmond last November, after the Chinese government began to put restrictions on property flipping—since last year, the study wouldn’t capture that.

“We’re trying to advance this discussion,” Berlin said. “Anecdotal evidence doesn’t give a real indication of what’s happening. This is just meant to be a starting point.”

Wong suggests that tracking precisely when immigrants come into the country would be helpful.

He believes that towards the end of last year and earlier this year, a wave of wealth immigrants buoyed the numbers.

And with this type of immigration coming in waves, it’s possible the next wave won’t come until prior to the Chinese New Year in 2012.

...

http://www.bclocalnews.com/richmond_southdelta/richmondreview/news/125224069.html
     
     
  #265  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 3:24 AM
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Just saw a Google ad on here saying: 在Vancouver成為房地產經紀 想做房地產經紀或房屋貸款嗎? idiots pass easy! 兩個月助您一次考過 $600 bensonwang.com

Which translates to: Want to become a real estate broker in the Vancouver real estate broker or mortgage it? Idiots pass easy! Two months will help you test more than $ 600

Sounds like anyone can sell a house to the Chinese these days.
     
     
  #266  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 9:09 AM
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The gold standard is Vancouver real estate.
     
     
  #267  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 6:28 AM
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I see Global BC is promoting a series on their newscasts starting this week, looking at this issue.
     
     
  #268  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 4:21 PM
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That's interesting, whatnext. I see it going this way:

If there's money coming in from the big real estate agencies and developers (the Bob Rennies), there will be scare tactics used to increase fear in Vancouverites... "The Chinese are coming and they're going to buy you out of house and home!"

I doubt we'll see anything close to what's reality on the news, to be honest. The reality looks potentially pretty grim and I don't think the major news broadcasters are able to report it until the general public has already accepted it and it's in action. Given that people are still lining up to buy a condo I think that while many are starting to feel we're coming up to a downward hill, people aren't 100% yet. There's still some time for smart marketers to sell some pre-sales.

The Banks have already diversified away from real estate in Canada, I've been hearing.
     
     
  #269  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 4:31 PM
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the promos show it being how many vancouverites are being priced out of the market

they ran a story - i don't know if it was global or CBC about how many young families within vancouver have realized they will never own a home if they choose to live here and are content with renting - their only option to ownership is to move east
     
     
  #270  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
That's interesting, whatnext. I see it going this way:

If there's money coming in from the big real estate agencies and developers (the Bob Rennies), there will be scare tactics used to increase fear in Vancouverites... "The Chinese are coming and they're going to buy you out of house and home!"

I doubt we'll see anything close to what's reality on the news, to be honest. The reality looks potentially pretty grim and I don't think the major news broadcasters are able to report it until the general public has already accepted it and it's in action. Given that people are still lining up to buy a condo I think that while many are starting to feel we're coming up to a downward hill, people aren't 100% yet. There's still some time for smart marketers to sell some pre-sales.

The Banks have already diversified away from real estate in Canada, I've been hearing.
It's the banks that require the pre-sales in order to finance projects like Marine Gateway.

The banks are continuing to lend on major residential construction projects in Vancouver at relatively cheap interest rates and until there is a noticeable change in the market, financing will still be readily available.
     
     
  #271  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
That's interesting, whatnext. I see it going this way:

If there's money coming in from the big real estate agencies and developers (the Bob Rennies), there will be scare tactics used to increase fear in Vancouverites... "The Chinese are coming and they're going to buy you out of house and home!"

I doubt we'll see anything close to what's reality on the news, to be honest. The reality looks potentially pretty grim and I don't think the major news broadcasters are able to report it until the general public has already accepted it and it's in action. Given that people are still lining up to buy a condo I think that while many are starting to feel we're coming up to a downward hill, people aren't 100% yet. There's still some time for smart marketers to sell some pre-sales.

The Banks have already diversified away from real estate in Canada, I've been hearing.
There wasn't much new in the piece. They followed a couple around from China who were looking at a multimillion property near Victoria (which doesn't have much relevance) but of course they already owned another home on the west wide (wonder how much time that sits empty).

Sam Sullivan took the predictable developer-backed stance: we're just not being allowed to build enough condos! Don't know how he thinks that will help. Build more, there will just be more foreign snap-ups like Marine Gateway. He also laughably claimed that maybe a thousand properties at most were foreign owned.

Former council candidiate Sandy Garossino was the most rational. She warned the city is being hollowed out. Those who want to work and stay are being driven farther out from the jobs and into the burbs. The point was echoed a Chinese-Canadian woman who had settled here and was disturbed by the same trend.
     
     
  #272  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by phesto View Post
It's the banks that require the pre-sales in order to finance projects like Marine Gateway.

The banks are continuing to lend on major residential construction projects in Vancouver at relatively cheap interest rates and until there is a noticeable change in the market, financing will still be readily available.
Interestingly, a couple of banks are raising rates on Thursday from 2.99% to 3.5%.

Lending is a relatively low-risk proposition for banks. Why wouldn't they to try lend as much as they can?
  • It's difficult for people to walk away from mortgages in Canada (unlike the US)
  • you require CMHC insurance if you're not putting 20% down, the banks are protected (less so the consumer).

Not many first time buyers are able to put $60,000 - $80,000 down on a small condo to avoid paying CMHC (CMHC moves risk from the bank to the general taxpayer). They give mortgages to anyone with a pulse. There's just not much risk for banks. Regulations are supposed to keep this in check, and there are rumors that they're going to reduce the max. mortgage to 25 years.

CMHC is almost bankrupt and something's gotta give. They need more money, or restrictions have to limit the number of insurable mortgages.

There is legislation coming this year that is putting LTV (Loan-to-value) rules in place. If you remortgage your place after 5 years, you can only re-mortgage based on the VALUE of the place, not how much you originally paid. What this means is that if the value drops $50,000, and you've paid off $10,000 off your capital, you could be on the hook for the $40,000 difference. At least that's how I believe it works. This will also protect the bank from risk.

Canada's banks are seen internationally as strong. I'm sure the federal government wants to protect this image... to the detriment of many regular people. Protect the banks, put the risk onto the taxpayer.


I don't want to be a Debbie downer but this would have major implications for new construction in Vancouver for the next few years. It would be good for the city long-term but it certainly painful for many if this comes to fruition.


Unfortunately, people keep buying and thinking it's different here.

Interesting that Sam Sullivan claimed only a thousand properties are foreign owned. There's probably some truth in that. China has become the world's bogeyman... and anything that drives fear into your average Vancouverite drives fear, which pushes prices up... which benefits developers. Anyone notice that evidence of foreign ownership is almost always anecdotal. Where are the hard numbers?

There are lots of Chinese people who own property here. There are lots of Chinese people who LIVE here. Sure, many empty units in buildings are held by speculators. In Marine Gateway, there were ~400 units bought by 130 buyers. Lots of speculators. No doubt, most of them were local. I seriously doubt many foreigners were here lining up to buy.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but all I'm saying is that 2012-2013 may turn out to be a very interesting year in Vancouver.
     
     
  #273  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Interestingly, a couple of banks are raising rates on Thursday from 2.99% to 3.5%.
Do you have a source for this information? A half-point jump is huge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
CMHC is almost bankrupt and something's gotta give. They need more money, or restrictions have to limit the number of insurable mortgages.
Also this? Mortgages haven't been failing in Canada so CMHC hasn't had to do payouts for anything. They've certainly been collecting the fees in the meantime...

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
There are lots of Chinese people who own property here. There are lots of Chinese people who LIVE here. Sure, many empty units in buildings are held by speculators. In Marine Gateway, there were ~400 units bought by 130 buyers. Lots of speculators. No doubt, most of them were local. I seriously doubt many foreigners were here lining up to buy.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but all I'm saying is that 2012-2013 may turn out to be a very interesting year in Vancouver.
Marine Gateway was limited to 1 purchase contract per person, not sure where you got this info either.

I'm expecting things to soften in the condo market in Vancouver, partially due to a mild increase in interest rates, but you're spouting a lot of stuff here without much backup.
     
     
  #274  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:02 PM
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Interestingly, a couple of banks are raising rates on Thursday from 2.99% to 3.5%.

Lending is a relatively low-risk proposition for banks. Why wouldn't they to try lend as much as they can?
  • It's difficult for people to walk away from mortgages in Canada (unlike the US)
  • you require CMHC insurance if you're not putting 20% down, the banks are protected (less so the consumer).

Not many first time buyers are able to put $60,000 - $80,000 down on a small condo to avoid paying CMHC (CMHC moves risk from the bank to the general taxpayer). They give mortgages to anyone with a pulse. There's just not much risk for banks. Regulations are supposed to keep this in check, and there are rumors that they're going to reduce the max. mortgage to 25 years.

CMHC is almost bankrupt and something's gotta give. They need more money, or restrictions have to limit the number of insurable mortgages.

There is legislation coming this year that is putting LTV (Loan-to-value) rules in place. If you remortgage your place after 5 years, you can only re-mortgage based on the VALUE of the place, not how much you originally paid. What this means is that if the value drops $50,000, and you've paid off $10,000 off your capital, you could be on the hook for the $40,000 difference. At least that's how I believe it works. This will also protect the bank from risk.

Canada's banks are seen internationally as strong. I'm sure the federal government wants to protect this image... to the detriment of many regular people. Protect the banks, put the risk onto the taxpayer.


I don't want to be a Debbie downer but this would have major implications for new construction in Vancouver for the next few years. It would be good for the city long-term but it certainly painful for many if this comes to fruition.


Unfortunately, people keep buying and thinking it's different here.

Interesting that Sam Sullivan claimed only a thousand properties are foreign owned. There's probably some truth in that. China has become the world's bogeyman... and anything that drives fear into your average Vancouverite drives fear, which pushes prices up... which benefits developers. Anyone notice that evidence of foreign ownership is almost always anecdotal. Where are the hard numbers?

There are lots of Chinese people who own property here. There are lots of Chinese people who LIVE here. Sure, many empty units in buildings are held by speculators. In Marine Gateway, there were ~400 units bought by 130 buyers. Lots of speculators. No doubt, most of them were local. I seriously doubt many foreigners were here lining up to buy.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but all I'm saying is that 2012-2013 may turn out to be a very interesting year in Vancouver.
Sorry I should've been clearer. What I meant was that the banks are the primary lenders of the actual construction of residential projects. For the most part developers need bank financing to fund the construction.

Ultimately, if the market softens, then so will pre-sales, which in turn will delay, place on hold, or even cancel the construction some projects that can't achieve sales levels sufficient to warrant construction. It will also worsen for developers as interest rates rise and just as for the retail buyer, their cost of borrowing will increase, affecting their bottom line.
     
     
  #275  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:06 PM
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Do you have a source for this information? A half-point jump is huge.
Sorry, 3.49% not 3.5%: http://www.canada.com/business/axes+discount+mortgage/6360445/story.html?id=6360445

What is BMO saying?
• Video Link


Quote:
Also this? Mortgages haven't been failing in Canada so CMHC hasn't had to do payouts for anything. They've certainly been collecting the fees in the meantime...
Sorry, I should've been more clear on my terminology. It's about the legal cap CMHC has:

News spread on Jan 31st that CMHC is starting to worry that they are closing in on their $600 Billion cap, currently sitting at about $541 Billion. CMHC is required by law to stay below this cap. Many consumers are oblivious to the fact that many major lenders insure bulk books of their mortgages, even at less than 80% financing where CMHC is not necessary. This stems back to the securitization process – it is significantly easier to sell a mortgage to investors if it is backed by CMHC.

This could change the Canadian housing and mortgage markets significantly. Raising the $600 Billion roof will not be easy politically, as Canadian citizens are on the hook if CMHC cannot afford to cover default losses. If the money supply begins to shrink, most lenders still want to keep their “AAA” business: income qualified, 20% down payment, owner occupied residences, etc. When the money supply begins to shrink, it happens on the back end. We saw this come under fire when the financial crisis started taking it on the chin in late 2008. Subprime lending nearly disappeared in Canada, commercial lending books were frozen, and lending for rental properties began tightening.


There's more in an article about what would happen if the ceiling isn't raised.

Quote:
Marine Gateway was limited to 1 purchase contract per person, not sure where you got this info either.

I'm expecting things to soften in the condo market in Vancouver, partially due to a mild increase in interest rates, but you're spouting a lot of stuff here without much backup.
Global TV reported that there were fewer than 150 people in line... (some state between 110 and 130) yet they all sold out. Either ALL the condos sold to a few or they held back 60% of units because they couldn't risk it NOT being a sell-out. A marketing scheme to lure people in for upcoming developments. Either way, it's not a good thing.

Interesting post: http://whispersfromtheedgeoftherainforest.blogspot.ca/2012/03/whats-wrong-with-this-picture.html

"Interestingly when you watch the Global clip, one buyer laments she was only able to secure a 1 bedroom condo (without an available parking spot at that). How come? Did she come late and miss out?

No... she showed up on time."


An interesting factoid from that article:


- Next month Rennie will pre-sale of 300 units at another Canada Line Station - Brighouse Station in Richmond.
- In September he will launch 230 units at Coquitlam Centre where the new Evergreen Line line will be opening.
- And a month after that 1,100 units, two towers, will go to market along the original Skytrain line in Vancouver at Joyce Road.

Can you imagine how crippling a flop in sales last Saturday could have been? Failure to sell out at Marine Gateway would have been devastating.


A lot of effort went into making sure the Marine Gateway "sold out"

Food for thought. Kind of puts a perspective on how slick (slimy) Rennie is.

Phesto, I agree, a shrinking market means fewer construction starts. Not good for SSP, but maybe the focus would go to commercial, in that case.
     
     
  #276  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:15 PM
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What was the starting price for a unit at Marine Gateway?
     
     
  #277  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:51 PM
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There were over 150 people in line before the doors opened. But by 1pm several hundred people had passed thru the presentation centre. Also it should be noted that in any project especially one like this one there are many insiders that would've purchased. I have no doubt that this project sold every unit available, it does not make sense for the developer to hold back the units if the demand is there. To say Rennie has a vested interest is pretty naive, his other upcoming projects with Intracorp/Wall have no bearing on PCI. PCI's interest is to sell their units and they would never allow their marketer to claim a sell out in order to benefit his other clients.
     
     
  #278  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 7:34 PM
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Too bad there are any investigative journalists in town. If I lived there I'd be tempted to to interview the purchasers in the Marine Gateway line up.

"So you got $400K you just need to slap down on a shoe box in the middle of nowhere?"
"Yep"
"Read the news about tightening credit conditions much?..."
"Nope"
"How about those condo buyers in China who ransacked a sales office because the developer started selling unsold units at 25% off?....."
"Hmmm"
     
     
  #279  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 1:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
There were over 150 people in line before the doors opened. But by 1pm several hundred people had passed thru the presentation centre. Also it should be noted that in any project especially one like this one there are many insiders that would've purchased. I have no doubt that this project sold every unit available, it does not make sense for the developer to hold back the units if the demand is there. To say Rennie has a vested interest is pretty naive, his other upcoming projects with Intracorp/Wall have no bearing on PCI. PCI's interest is to sell their units and they would never allow their marketer to claim a sell out in order to benefit his other clients.
jlousa, while I realize that there were people in and out, the project sold out in 4 hours! Of course I realize that there were insiders who bought suites. That's my point. While PCI doesn't have a vested interest, Rennie DOES. He's the one who sems to have engineered it to sell out. He was in charge of marketing the place. Let's not forget, he's really good at it.. and is really wealthy because he's good at it.

You have to admit, it DOES seem a tad engineered. Like the reports said, not since Woodwards have we seen such a frenzy. It doesn't add up for me.

One woman interviewed showed up ON TIME and didn't get a suite. That's a tad suspect.
It was extensively marketed before the sale on craigslist.

I'm not saying it's a massive conspiracy, but it was pretty clear that there was some extensive marketing and there was probably a considerable number of purchases held back for insiders.
     
     
  #280  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 2:08 AM
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I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you claiming that they did not sell all the units or that they did, just not in the 4hrs?
Woodwards sold all 536hrs on it's first day, took a tad longer then 4hrs but not all that much more and I can assure you it wasn't as well organized back then. Telus sold extremely fast as well and it certainly wasn't to Mainland Chinese. I think people need to realize there is still strong demand for well priced properties.
     
     
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