Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Rico]

Why are we talking about this, the Evergreen is a valid project. It may not be as 'good' as the Broadway project but it is funded and ready to go. This kind of talk only gives fuel to the antitransit spending crowd.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The only reason to build Evergreen now is because the Feds put stimulus money into it, and we would lose that if we changed plans. Otherwise there is no good reason to build it first.

The line was planned all the way back in 1989 I think (where it would branch off Expo Line at Royal Oak). That's the main reason that it gets build right now - the construction was delayed for 20-22 years!

[logan5]

Originally Posted by nname

The line was planned all the way back in 1989 I think (where it would branch off Expo Line at Royal Oak). That's the main reason that it gets build right now - the construction was delayed for 20-22 years!

You're a devout Skytrain fanatic, tell me your plan for the busiest section of the Expo Line when Evergreen passengers pile into Broadway Station and 99b line.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by logan5

You're a devout Skytrain fanatic, tell me your plan for the busiest section of the Expo Line when Evergreen passengers pile into Broadway Station and 99b line.

And some people here seem to think if Evergreen is cancelled their project will get built, I think that is false. Just an excuse for a politician to blame a different politician andbuild a voter friendly road improvement instead. If anything a mass jam at Broadway will speed up the process to get the line built....no excuses everyone will see it is needed.

[usog]

Originally Posted by Rico

And some people here seem to think if Evergreen is cancelled their project will get built, I think that is false. Just an excuse for a politician to blame a different politician andbuild a voter friendly road improvement instead. If anything a mass jam at Broadway will speed up the process to get the line built....no excuses everyone will see it is needed.

This, very much this. If anything, the people who want to force RRT down the full length of Broadway ahead of any other project are as bad as the railtothevalley people

[nname]

Originally Posted by logan5

You're a devout Skytrain fanatic, tell me your plan for the busiest section of the Expo Line when Evergreen passengers pile into Broadway Station and 99b line.

Expo Line - Just run more short-turned Broadway - Waterfront trains, or even make them permanent into the schedule - trains alternating King George/Lougheed/King George/Broadway every 1.4min (84s). This would give 10-20% improvement over the current capacity (depend on whether they use 2-cars or 4-cars), which would be more than enough.

99 B-Line - It would just force the busiest segment to be the top priority and to be build ASAP, most likely as a grade separated system because it is so busy.. wouldn't it be nice...

But really, I doubt the Evergreen Line would create much problem for the busy section during peak hours. There is still the WCE, and it would still be the preferred choice for people to get Downtown or UBC (it would be crazy to take the SkyTrain+99 when WCE+44 can save you more than 30min). In the RTM document, they predict by 2021, the Evergreen Line would have peak load of 5631 pphpd. The load on the current Millennium Line would increase by 3172-3521 pphpd due to Evergreen Line, but the load into Downtown would only increase by 589 pphpd (much smaller than the contribution of 3007 pphpd due to the ridership growth from existing line). Most of the people who want to continue west would transfer to the 84 at VCC-Clark rather than squeezing to the 99, since the amount of transfer is the same.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by nname

But really, I doubt the Evergreen Line would create much problem for the busy section during peak hours. There is still the WCE, and it would still be the preferred choice for people to get Downtown or UBC (it would be crazy to take the SkyTrain+99 when WCE+44 can save you more than 30min). In the RTM document, they predict by 2021, the Evergreen Line would have peak load of 5631 pphpd. The load on the current Millennium Line would increase by 3172-3521 pphpd due to Evergreen Line, but the load into Downtown would only increase by 589 pphpd (much smaller than the contribution of 3007 pphpd due to the ridership growth from existing line). Most of the people who want to continue west would transfer to the 84 at VCC-Clark rather than squeezing to the 99, since the amount of transfer is the same.

Has there been any suggestion on what the peak load might be for the Central Broadway line? Maybe somebody has posted it, but I missed it.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The only reason to build Evergreen now is because the Feds put stimulus money into it, and we would lose that if we changed plans. Otherwise there is no good reason to build it first.

To shape growth in a un developed and rapidly growing section of the metro?

What is the growth rate along the evergreen line route, 10 times the rate of the Broadway corridor? Maybe more when you consider the massive Burke mountain development and other huge developments in the Poco area.

[Metro-One]

And both Poco and Coquitlam have implemented strong urban planning in anticipation for this line already. The transformation of downtown Coquitlam over the last 5 years is amazing.

Bottom line is, we are all aware of the political willingness of the Tri-cities for the Evergreen Line, vs. the resistance towards the Broadway extension. Then, also add the recent debacle involving cut and cover along Cambie, it is best to allow time to pass before building the Broadway subway (even though an educated person would know that a bored tunnel will not cause the same problems, but then the average person is semi-retarded).

The Evergreen Line is in advanced stages now of pre-development, with even utility relocation occurring now and demolition of properties, so who in their right mind would want to stop this project now, and sit on their thumb for the next 2-3 years while the details of the Broadway extension gets ironed out?

When the Evergreen Line is done, the Broadway extension of the M-Line (which is will be, so help me god!) will be t the stage where it can begin construction.

So no more of this bitching! Thing of the Evergreen Line as a huge bonus project as we wait for the Broadway extension to become ready for construction.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

And both Poco and Coquitlam have implemented strong urban planning in anticipation for this line already. The transformation of downtown Coquitlam over the last 5 years is amazing.

Bottom line is, we are all aware of the political willingness of the Tri-cities for the Evergreen Line, vs. the resistance towards the Broadway extension. Then, also add the recent debacle involving cut and cover along Cambie, it is best to allow time to pass before building the Broadway subway (even though an educated person would know that a bored tunnel will not cause the same problems, but then the average person is semi-retarded)...

This reminds me of the George Carlin quote about the 'average person'. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but it's something like: "think of the average person, and how stupid they are...and half of the people are even dumber than that!!"

[Metro-One]

hehe, I happen to be a huge George Carlin Fan

[Echowinds]

I don't think people here actually believe that we should stop Evergreen Line so that we can build the Broadway Line sooner, but rather from an objective business point of view it makes more sense to build the Broadway Line first. Of course, from a political and regional interest it does make more sense to build the line to the Tri-Cities. We have to eventually build both of them anyways, so getting either one done first is great for the region.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Bottom line is, we are all aware of the political willingness of the Tri-cities for the Evergreen Line, vs. the resistance towards the Broadway extension. Then, also add the recent debacle involving cut and cover along Cambie, it is best to allow time to pass before building the Broadway subway (even though an educated person would know that a bored tunnel will not cause the same problems, but then the average person is semi-retarded).

Haha, I am sure as average people we are also completely retarded in certain other fields too. It's pretty much impossible to have adequate knowledge on everything, even if it is "common sense".

[racc]

Originally Posted by Echowinds

I don't think people here actually believe that we should stop Evergreen Line so that we can build the Broadway Line sooner, but rather from an objective business point of view it makes more sense to build the Broadway Line first.

At this point, even that argument makes no sense. The time to raise this issue would have been five or ten years ago. Now, delaying the Evergreen Line will not even speed up the UBC. If anything, the increased number of riders generated by the Evergreen Line greatly strengthens the case for the UBC Line to go ahead as soon as possible and it also strengthens the case for RRT.

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by cornholio

What is the growth rate along the evergreen line route, 10 times the rate of the Broadway corridor? Maybe more when you consider the massive Burke mountain development and other huge developments in the Poco area.

Yep, couldn't agree more. There is (sadly) no way in hell Vancouverites will allow significant density increases around stations on Broadway right now.

I'd personally like the Feds and the province to make funding contingent on zoning to allow high density around the stations.

[racc]

Originally Posted by quobobo

Yep, couldn't agree more. There is (sadly) no way in hell Vancouverites will allow significant density increases around stations on Broadway right now.

I'd personally like the Feds and the province to make funding contingent on zoning to allow high density around the stations.

There is already significant density of both jobs and housing around the majority of planned stations on the UBC Line and much more is being planned.

Of the 10 stations, only 2 or 3 will be at all problematic in creating new density around. Even in Mount Pleasant, where there is much debate about the Rize, people seem OK with 8-10 story buildings that have a huge number of units.

All along Broadway, people are fine with 4 story buildings which alone, would house a large number of people although I don't think they are the best solution. I can see people supporting a few towers near the stations. There already are some around Sasamat and Blanca.

Ironically, I suspect many of those who have opposed higher densities are being priced out of the West Side of Vancouver precisely because they have resisted density.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by quobobo

Yep, couldn't agree more. There is (sadly) no way in hell Vancouverites will allow significant density increases around stations on Broadway right now.

You only have to look at the huge investment in new retail space on Cambie Street just north of Broadway and at all the new condo developments going in on the lands just east of there (all of which are within walking distance of Broadway) to see that this is simply not true.

Evergreen's going ahead - but let's get Broadway built, too. Fast-track the section to Cambie / Canada Line to get the rapid transit network connected, and plan for westward expansion soon after that.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

You only have to look at the huge investment in new retail space on Cambie Street just north of Broadway and at all the new condo developments going in on the lands just east of there (all of which are within walking distance of Broadway) to see that this is simply not true.

Evergreen's going ahead - but let's get Broadway built, too. Fast-track the section to Cambie / Canada Line to get the rapid transit network connected, and plan for westward expansion soon after that.

My thoughts exactly, all along. Thank you for summing up this "thesis" so succinctly. Hope it becomes the work timeline for entire project

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by racc

Of the 10 stations, only 2 or 3 will be at all problematic in creating new density around. Even in Mount Pleasant, where there is much debate about the Rize, people seem OK with 8-10 story buildings that have a huge number of units.

I hope you're right, but looking at the LRT map these stations seem like they'll be problematic:

UBC, UEL (students aren't so happy about new market development on campus, and neither are existing UEL residents - the Courier's published rants by UEL NIMBYs in response to almost nothing)

Everything in Point Grey and Kits

Arbutus is iffy - sure, people are fine with condos on Broadway but I don't think they'll be happy if the freestanding houses off Broadway are upzoned.

Cambie is significantly underzoned for how good the transit is, and I don't see that changing.

Fraser (remember the community uproar over that midrise?)

I completely accept that the existing density is much better than what exists in Coquitlam, but I'm really not convinced that we'll see much upzoning in response to a new transit line (and there is a lot of room for that, especially on the West Side). Coquitlam seems like it has much more potential for adding new transit users.

[agrant]

Why all this discussion if we already know the Evergreen line will be built first?

Regarding people in Vancouver being opposed to density increases... from what I've observed, this does exist. But I think it has more to do with the structure being out of scale with the neighborhood than adding more people. Increases in density have been slowly happening for awhile. You see it in turning giant houses into 3 or 4 unit complexes (at least this is happening in my area), or adding small laneway houses... There's also new mid rises going up here and there on the major arterial streets. Let's also not forget all the areas around False Creek, where we're looking at a major population increase over the next 20 years.

[satishreddy]

I don't understand why there is an issue of increasing density along the Broadway line. Based on recent census numbers, Vancouver has a density of greater than 5000 people per square kilometer (based on 600,000+ people). Even if you neglect 80,000+ people who live in downtown, density on average is 4000+ per square km. Yes, density goes down as one moves west to Point Grey and the Endowment Lands, but there is a little school out there, which is one 3 most frequented transit destinations in Metro Vancouver.

By the way, the density of Coquitlam is slightly more than 1000 per square km.

If one uses a density argument to claim that rapid transit should not be built on Broadway, then that argument will apply to every single corridor in Metro Vancouver - other than downtown. The above density numbers don't take into account jobs or schools, which only bolster the rationale for building rapid transit along Broadway.

Yes, the Evergreen line is going to be built first. It doesn't make it a correct decision.