Halifax Stadium Discussion

[q12]

Report recommends holding off on HRM stadium

CBC News Posted: Mar 23, 2012 3:16 PM AT

A feasibility study out Friday is recommending that Halifax regional council not proceed at this time with the building of a stadium for Halifax Regional Municipality.

The report says the city didn't get the funding needed to pay for the stadium, estimated to cost between $54.8 million and $71.1 million.

The city spent $100,000 on a phase one report, and about $375,000 in consultant fees.

Council has to decide by March 31, a deadline set by the Canadian Soccer Association to keep Halifax in the running to be one of the host cities during the FIFA Women's World Cup Soccer Event in 2015.

HRM committed $20 million towards the cost, but the provincial government has said it's not interested in helping out — that left the private sector.

In January, Mayor Peter Kelly sent a letter out to businesses asking for contributions for "one of the most exciting projects Halifax has seen in recent years."

Council requested an extension of the original Dec. 31 FIFA deadline.

The association gave the city a three-month extension, with the deadline of March 31.

Council will vote on whether to move forward Tuesday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/03/23/ns-stadium-report.html

This is probably a good thing since the rushed stadium design and size along with the estimated cost was not what we are looking for. I find it amazing that Dexter and the friggin' NDP (who have us taxed to death) can't put any money forward.

[cormiermax]

Looks like it will be another 10 years or so before we see another stadium study, then maybe another 5 to actually see shovels in the ground. Seems like a great outcome to me!

[q12]

Well I don't want them to shelve it, espeically since there is private interest. They should continue with the process but look at a better design like one of fenwick's that is expandable.

[fenwick16]

The staff report is posted on the halifax.ca website at this link - http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/120327ca1011.pdf .

The recommendations aren't all negative and if the HRM follows through with the recommendations then in the long run the HRM should get a suitable stadium.

Here are the recommendations in the staff report:
"It is recommended that Halifax Regional Council:
1. Not proceed to Stadium Analysis Phase 3 - Construction, at this time;
2. Direct the Mayor, on behalf of Halifax Regional Municipality, to thank the Canadian Soccer Association for their ongoing interest in Halifax Regional Municipality as a candidate and potential host city, and to notify the CSA of Council's decision to decline further discussions related to the 2014 and 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup events;
3. Approve the Phase 2 Stadium Analysis report as the basis of the requirement for a stadium and include the project on the Capital Plan as a future consideration; and
4. Identify Shannon Park as the preferred site for the future Multi-use Stadium project, and direct staff to work with Canada Lands Company for the future siting of a recreation/sport facility campus (up to 40 acres)."

[Empire]

In 1984 council said it wasn't prudent to proceed with a 9 million dollar 25,000 seat stadium because we couldn't afford it. It was much wiser to let a CFL franchise slip through our naive fingers.

How wrong they were then and how wrong they will be when they vote to bail! CWG deja vu.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

In 1984 council said it wasn't prudent to proceed with a 9 million dollar 25,000 seat stadium because we couldn't afford it. It was much wiser to let a CFL franchise slip through our naive fingers.

How wrong they were then and how wrong they will be when they vote to bail! CWG deja vu.

It is sad to think that the Atlantic Schooners could have a 25 year history of being in the CFL now. At the time, $9 million would have built an impressive stadium.

At that time (early 1980's), would it have been Dartmouth Council that would have provided funding. (I thought that the federal government bailed on a loan guarantee also?).

This time residents will have to become more actively involved and make sure that it isn't simply forgotten for years at a time.

[Keith P.]

Probably just as well, if it meant putting it in Shannon Park. Bad rationale, bad location.

[Empire]

If this effort fails then an immediate funding campaign needs to happen. Had that happened in 1984 we could have paid cash for a stadium now.

I am thoroughly disgusted with Darrell Dexter! Actually I am just continually disgusted with DD and the loser NDP gov.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

If this effort fails then an immediate funding campaign needs to happen. Had that happened in 1984 we could have paid cash for a stadium now.

I am thoroughly disgusted with Darrell Dexter! Actually I am just continually disgusted with DD and the loser NDP gov.

The NDP talk about attracting international immigrants to Nova Scotia and ex-Nova Scotians but they seem to think that all that is necessary is the promise of jobs. Once people live close to major cities for several years they begin to expect more than just a job.

Premier Dexter's line to the HRM regarding a stadium "don't ask and we won't say no" isn't the type of attitude that will attract immigrants . Although I know otherwise, when I hear such comments I think that things will never change. Why can't Premier Dexter understand the concept of civic pride?

[ILoveHalifax]

How about we all bus out to the suburbs to say? - Liverpool to the Darrel Dexter 45,000 seat stadium.
Any chance the province could contribute some of the land we bought from the Irvings as a site for a stadium? whoops! more busing.
NOTHING for Halifax, Darrel??????

[beyeas]

I agree with many of the above comments about the lack of support from the Dexter government. I also feel disappointed that there were no federal dollars put forward either... Apparently those dollars are too tied up in building new jails for robocallers and overpaying for untendered fighter jets.

[Clayton Park]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Probably just as well, if it meant putting it in Shannon Park. Bad rationale, bad location.

I read it as saying that the long term plan is to put a Stadium at Shannon Park. Who else has a stadium right beside a cold body of water? Oh yeah, Toronto and San Francisco. Great, Halifax will have its very own version of Candlestick Park or Exhibition Stadium. Halifax can be foggy, cold and windy. So why even consider building a stadium at a location foggier, colder and windier than average?

If they build it, it is only a matter of time before somebody makes pins like this:



"I came, I saw, I survived"

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Clayton Park

I read it as saying that the long term plan is to put a Stadium at Shannon Park. Who else has a stadium right beside a cold body of water? Oh yeah, Toronto and San Francisco. Great, Halifax will have its very own version of Candlestick Park or Exhibition Stadium. Halifax can be foggy, cold and windy. So why even consider building a stadium at a location foggier, colder and windier than average?

If they build it, it is only a matter of time before somebody makes pins like this:



"I came, I saw, I survived"

Yes, that is my point exactly as to why Shannon is a horrible spot for such a thing. The report authors seem to have accepted the rationale that the land is freely available, which it isn't, and have not fully considered better sites.

But it probably doesn't matter much since it appears the SMU Huskies may be playing their games next year in a parking lot since we don't even have a facility good enough to accommodate crowds of that size, much less anything more substantial. Ridiculous for a city this size.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by q12

This is probably a good thing since the rushed stadium design and size along with the estimated cost was not what we are looking for. I find it amazing that Dexter and the friggin' NDP (who have us taxed to death) can't put any money forward.

In no way is this a good thing. A rushed stadium is still a stadium and would have been something to use as a foundation to build upon. What we have now is a situation where the city can't pay for a new stadium by itself and there is no support coming from the province or Ottawa. There is no way in this world that the private sector will make up the remaining $50+ million shortfall. Private companies buy advertising, suites and season tickets. They don't build stadiums. Tell me of just one major stadium that was ever built by private contributions (without a private individual having a major interest in the stadium such as the owner of the football team) for a public owned stadium. Outside of U.S. college football stadiums being built by wealthy alumni donors, it just does not happen. Unless things change when Dexter is gone or if some wealthy billionaire wants to throw some money our way, this stadium project is dead for years to come. What a sad day for Halifax.

[fenwick16]

I am not convinced by other's assertions that Shannon Park will be a windy, foggy location. Based on terrain images it appears to be in a sheltered cove. As far as fog goes, it usually disappears by noontime. Although Shannon Park is not my first choice, it seems to be the most popular choice for most residents so it is a location that can win public support. It can also lead to synergies, as discussed in the staff report, such as a potential ferry location and "park and ride" location.

I think that the most important thing at this point is to make sure that the HRM follows through on the staff recommendations by negotiating the purchase of Shannon Park and then starts preparing it for a stadium. If it does, then the next time a sports event comes along there will be plenty of time to arrange funding.

If there is the will to raise the funds then there are numerous ways that it could be done. It should also be noted that if Shannon Park is selected to be a ferry location and "park and ride" location then there could very possibly be provincial and federal funding for that infrastructure, which would help with the servicing costs. (The Dexter government seems to like building roads)

I believe the next steps should be:
1) Purchase land at Shannon Park
2) Design an economical but publicly acceptable stadium model. Ditch the soccer-specific model - that isn't what the public said that they wanted. The majority of the public stated a preference for a multipurpose stadium, which included the potential for a CFL team. One advantage to forgetting about government funding for an amateur event is that now the HRM can state that it also wants a CFL team. The current stadium effort created public apathy because the CFL potential was purposely ignored. Public funding all comes from the same pockets - ours; so get supporters to contribute directly (I would and I think many others would also).
3) Start a fund raising campaign.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Welkin

In no way is this a good thing. A rushed stadium is still a stadium and would have been something to use as a foundation to build upon. What we have now is a situation where the city can't pay for a new stadium by itself and there is no support coming from the province or Ottawa. There is no way in this world that the private sector will make up the remaining $50+ million shortfall. Private companies buy advertising, suites and season tickets. They don't build stadiums. Tell me of just one major stadium that was ever built by private contributions (without a private individual having a major interest in the stadium such as the owner of the football team) for a public owned stadium. Outside of U.S. college football stadiums being built by wealthy alumni donors, it just does not happen. Unless things change when Dexter is gone or if some wealthy billionaire wants to throw some money our way, this stadium project is dead for years to come. What a sad day for Halifax.

Maybe good thing wasn't the right thing to say. I want the stadium to be built more than anyone here (except maybe fenwick ), I just felt that they didn't listen to what the public wanted in the public meetings, so we were left with an uninspiring basic stadium that costs more than it should.

Moncton went and built an event specific stadium that is great for track and field but not for football. But they only paid a fraction of what this stadium would cost and still got a decent amount of seating.

Let's put the plan in motion for a stadium that seats or is easily expandable to 25,000 and is designed for football first and soccer second. Who are these private partners? If Dal and SMU want to get onboard that's great. The Huskies could potentially be a primary tenant until we get a CFL team.

[RyeJay]

The fog, wind, and cold of Shannon Park a reason not to build a stadium there?

Yes -- clearly -- the unfavourable weather conditions of Shannon Park are so extreme that Dartmouth Crossing seems like a tropical paradise. Let's be real here: People in Halifax want a centrally located stadium that is easily accessible via public transit and/or on foot. Halifax can only afford a centrally located stadium because of the massive shifts in lifestyles, personally affordability, public debt, and rising costs of everything essential to city maintenance. We cannot afford anything else.

The waterfront has many beautiful, clear days year-round, especially during the summer; and I must say, your argument is fairly applicable to the downtown Halifax itself. You are apparently strongly in favour of the 'irrationale' that is densifying the core.

Because we need to run away from the fog.
Let's move everyone and everything to Sackville. We certainly cannot build Skye Halifax near so much fog, can we?...

This complaining about Shannon Park is ridiculous. Halifax is making attempts to urbanise and Shannon Park is an excellent compromise for a stadium that will not be built directly in the core, which would have been the smarter choice, and of which I'm unsure about your actual support. I, on the other hand, support the downtown and would absolutely prefer a stadium on the peninsula.

If you're sensitive about the weather, residing in another city is recommended as it may help with your daily mood. I see this as an issue with disgruntled men of whom may not see a stadium built in their lifetimes... and this burns.

Bitterness is so tragic.

I, for one, am very grateful this process has been extended so that the city may properly articulate its options and needs in order to produce something more accurate to what HRM actually wants -- not just something that would be modestly adequate for a soccer tournament, but might magically turn into something that would woo the CFL. Halifax needs to stop chasing fantasies at the last second, and focus on something practical so we can set a foundation that is economical and give the CFL a reason to pick Halifax.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I see this as an issue with disgruntled men of whom may not see a stadium built in their lifetimes... and this burns.

Bitterness is so tragic.

I, for one, am very grateful this process has been extended so that the city may properly articulate its options and needs in order to produce something more accurate to what HRM actually wants -- not just something that would be modestly adequate for a soccer tournament, but might magically turn into something that would woo the CFL. Halifax needs to stop chasing fantasies at the last second, and focus on something practical so we can set a foundation that is economical and give the CFL a reason to pick Halifax.

Although I agree somewhat with your sentiment, I remember seeing an elderly lady, who appeared to be about 75 - 80 years old, at one of the public consultations who supported the building of a stadium and wanted to see a CFL team for the sake of her grandchildren. This stadium process shouldn't drag on for so long that many residents won't see it during their lifetimes. This is why many ex-residents move away and never come back; they move to cities where things actually happen instead of just being talked about.

If a stadium isn't under construction at Shannon Park within 3 years then this whole HRM stadium process has been a failure, in my opinion.

[Clayton Park]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

The fog, wind, and cold of Shannon Park a reason not to build a stadium there?

Yes -- clearly -- the unfavourable weather conditions of Shannon Park are so extreme that Dartmouth Crossing seems like a tropical paradise. Let's be real here: People in Halifax want a centrally located stadium that is easily accessible via public transit and/or on foot. Halifax can only afford a centrally located stadium because of the massive shifts in lifestyles, personally affordability, public debt, and rising costs of everything essential to city maintenance. We cannot afford anything else.

The waterfront has many beautiful, clear days year-round, especially during the summer; and I must say, your argument is fairly applicable to the downtown Halifax itself. You are apparently strongly in favour of the 'irrationale' that is densifying the core.

Because we need to run away from the fog.
Let's move everyone and everything to Sackville. We certainly cannot build Skye Halifax near so much fog, can we?...

This complaining about Shannon Park is ridiculous. Halifax is making attempts to urbanise and Shannon Park is an excellent compromise for a stadium that will not be built directly in the core, which would have been the smarter choice, and of which I'm unsure about your actual support. I, on the other hand, support the downtown and would absolutely prefer a stadium on the peninsula.

If you're sensitive about the weather, residing in another city is recommended as it may help with your daily mood. I see this as an issue with disgruntled men of whom may not see a stadium built in their lifetimes... and this burns.

Bitterness is so tragic.

I, for one, am very grateful this process has been extended so that the city may properly articulate its options and needs in order to produce something more accurate to what HRM actually wants -- not just something that would be modestly adequate for a soccer tournament, but might magically turn into something that would woo the CFL. Halifax needs to stop chasing fantasies at the last second, and focus on something practical so we can set a foundation that is economical and give the CFL a reason to pick Halifax.

So Halifax can only afford a centrally located stadium, and Shannon Park is an excellent compromise. I hate to break it to you, but Shannon Park isn't a Central location, and so by your own reasoning must not be affordable.

You said that "public debt, and rising costs of everything essential to city maintenance" should be considered in the stadium planning process. A Dartmouth Crossing stadium would be built at a fully serviced greenfield site. The roads are already there, the services are already there. It would cost less (so minimizing public debt) and wouldn't add to the costs of city maintenance because no new roads/services would be required.

Shannon Park is a brownfield site where access/services would need to be improved and would be more expensive than a greenfield site. Urbanists don't like to hear it, but greenfield development is cheaper. So, it would be nice if you could explain why a brownfield site would be less expensive than a greenfield site 1.5 miles away.

Shannon Park is on the Dartmouth side, just off the Circ, 5 miles from downtown. Dartmouth Crossing is on the Dartmouth side, just off the Circ, 6.5 miles from downtown. Somehow, one of those locations is an excellent compromise and the other is completely unacceptable. It would be nice if you could explain why those 1.5 miles is so important.

Complaining about Shannon Park is ridiculous? Why is it ridiculous to point out the downside of a location? It isn't even your preferred location. Would it be fair to describe any negative comments about any potential stadium site as complaining? Would it be fair to describe your negative comments about Dartmouth Crossing as complaining?

Nobody said that "unfavourable weather conditions of Shannon Park are so extreme that Dartmouth Crossing seems like a tropical paradise" Nobody suggested to "move everyone and everything to Sackville. " Nobody said "we need to run away from the fog"

You said that bitterness is tragic. Do you have an opinion about straw man arguments?

Your post was a good reminder to stop checking this thread. Thanks.

[fenwick16]

I have made similar comments about Shannon Park being too cold and windy but I just based it on personal assumptions that might be wrong. I have also made analogies to Candlestick Park, however, the new AT&T Park in San Francisco is on the same cold body of water and just 2 - 3 miles North of Candlestick Park. It is considered to be a beautiful stadium and one of the best in the MLB. Here is the map link - http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.778333,...22.384949&spn=0.028559,0.066047&t=h&z=15. If you scan down on the Google Map you can see Candlestick Park.

The following statement is taken from Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Park: A team of engineers from UC Davis was consulted in the design process of the park resulting in wind levels that are approximately half those at Candlestick.

I think a stadium can be designed at Shannon Park that uses trees and the natural terrain to protect it from the wind.

One thing that makes Shannon Park a more central location is that it is about half the distance to the new Dartmouth Bus terminal as Dartmouth Crossings (and fit people can walk without having to cross the Circumferential highway). There is also the potential for having a ferry crossing to Shannon Park.


Here is a Google Streetview link for Shannon Park - http://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax,+n...AClyTFUi__9ZVioE2igA&cbp=11,249.3,,0,4.8. It seems to be sheltered from the wind by hills in nearly every direction. A stadium wouldn't have to be directly next to the harbour; I think having the main concourse at street-level with Baffin Blvd would be a good idea (for example, as in this simple 3D computer model that I drew - http://imageshack.us/a/img404/963/stadiumatshannonparkdec.jpg). Another advantage to this location is that it has great visibility from the MacKay Bridge - this is a big advantage for advertising and just to entice people to come to the stadium.