Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[jlousa]

I used to think RRT was the only solution but I'll admit Combo 1 is growing on me. I'd be happy with either, but I'll admit if Combo 1 is built the likelyhood of RRT being extended one day is probably nil.

[nname]

One main issue with Combo 1 is that, it encourage people to stay on the Expo Line from Broadway to Main Street rather than getting people away from it (as in RRT, Combo2, LRT, BRT options). As a result, people going west of Arbutus, who currently leave Expo Line at Broadway, would most likely stay on the train for one extra station rather than transferring twice. That's an extra ~2,000pphpd added to the busiest segment of the Expo Line.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by nname

One main issue with Combo 1 is that, it encourage people to stay on the Expo Line from Broadway to Main Street rather than getting people away from it (as in RRT, Combo2, LRT, BRT options). As a result, people going west of Arbutus, who currently leave Expo Line at Broadway, would most likely stay on the train for one extra station rather than transferring twice. That's an extra ~2,000pphpd added to the busiest segment of the Expo Line.

Or looking at it another way, it separates UBC and Broadway corridor traffic. The reason that section is so busy is because EVERYONE is transferring from M-Line and 99-BLine (East bound) to Expo. With a transfer at the Canada Line, people have another way to get downtown.

[flight_from_kamakura]

yeah, it would be nice to clear up some of the traffic at commercial and broadway, which hasn't really been well built as a street-level transit exchange. what's nice is that with that little triangle at arbutus/broadway (the site of the dry cleaning joint), there's a perfect skytrain station site and transit junction - right adjacent to the arbutus cpr tracks, easy turnaround point for the lrt west of arbutus - on a virtually vacant lot.

[nname]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Or looking at it another way, it separates UBC and Broadway corridor traffic. The reason that section is so busy is because EVERYONE is transferring from M-Line and 99-BLine (East bound) to Expo. With a transfer at the Canada Line, people have another way to get downtown.

Well, unless their final destination is somewhere on the Canada Line, most from the Millennium Line would probably stay with the transfer to Expo since it is actually faster, and its not like the Canada Line north of Broadway is any less crowded than the Expo Line. The one would change are most likely those going to south Vancouver, Richmond, or the airport. I don't think there's many people who want to transfer from 99 B-Line eastbound to Expo westbound.. since every stop served by the 99 also served by a direct route to downtown, so why would anyone bother to go all the way around with a transfer?

I still see RRT to UBC (eventually) is the only way to go, as it is the only option that addresses the capacity issues on the 49, 41, 25 and fully replace the 44 and 480.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Or looking at it another way, it separates UBC and Broadway corridor traffic. The reason that section is so busy is because EVERYONE is transferring from M-Line and 99-BLine (East bound) to Expo. With a transfer at the Canada Line, people have another way to get downtown.

But I think the point is that people from the M-Line would still transfer at Expo to get downtown AND the people who currently disembark to catch the 99 to UBC would stay on. This would make the problem worse than current, not better.

In fact, if this is NOT the case (i.e., if people for UBC do all disembark Expo at Commercial-Broadway) then would there be enough ridership to warrant a full LRT from Main St to Arbutus? I really see that as more of a streetcar route to complement RRT along Broadway / 10th.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, unless their final destination is somewhere on the Canada Line, most from the Millennium Line would probably stay with the transfer to Expo since it is actually faster, and its not like the Canada Line north of Broadway is any less crowded than the Expo Line.

Yes, but the difference is that the Canada Line has way more unused capacity than Expo Line. To expand 20 Expo Line stations and OMC for 120 meter trains would be horrifically expensive. It is far, far cheaper to buy 20-30 more trains for Canada Line, or even to remove the Canada Line station knockout panels and buy Rotem "C" cars. If the lines are connected at City Hall, then we can leverage the capacity of those False Creek tunnels that we just built.

[officedweller]

I think the advantage of LRT on Broadway over BRT (but not over RRT) is that LRT trains would clear the platforms, whereas BRT may not. So while the travel time remains similar for LRT and BRT, with LRT there wouldn't (hopefully) be the pass-ups seen with BRT (so that cuts down on waiting time).

[Prometheus]

Let's be clear about one thing: Although almost as expensive as RRT, Combo 1's transit time from Commercial to UBC is no faster than a more efficient use of the current bus infrastructure. RRT, by contrast, will be more than 10 minutes faster. So, in a sense, Combo 1 is not really a "UBC Line" at all, for it completely fails to improve the movement of people travelling to UBC. Moreover, RRT, unlike Combo 1, does not destroy two usable lanes or disrupt traffic flow in any way along Broadway.

[Zassk]

My comment was dismissed two pages ago, but I think it would be a terrible mistake for this line to be routed away from the hospital and Broadway&Granville areas. This transit investment is really about servicing two very important regional hubs - UBC and Central Broadway. Any plans that leaves either of them served by Broadway buses is a huge waste of investment. IMO it is important to hit the hospital district, more important than Granville Island by far.

[someone123]

Can't Broadway RRT be built in phases while retaining the same old 99 service?

You'd think that even if they went from VCC to Cambie or Granville that would be a huge improvement. Travel to areas like VGH would be very convenient and even UBC travelers would be better off because they'd be on a slow bus for a smaller fraction of their journey. Presumably the 99 would also have less traffic if it only served, say, Cambie-UBC.

[Metro-One]

Thats why while I prefer full RRT the entire length, combo 1 is still ok with me.

Because i am one of those travelers who uses the 99 several days a week just to go from the Canada Line to the M line. Would love to cut my transfers in half and connect to the M line underground at Broadway-City Hall station!

[jlousa]

Well combo one does serve the most important region with RRT (the broadway business district/VGH/Canada Line). UBC would still benefit just not as much as the would with RRT.

[itinerant]

Going to UBC, RRT and LRT both have greater capacity per train and frequency of service than current articulated (and non-articulated) buses that move on 20 minute intervals and pass-by people all along the route. Even if surface LRT is the same travel time once you're on the train, it will remove waits and pass-bys that plague current express and local bus routes going to/from UBC.

[Metro-One]

Seeing how I have never been passed up by the 99 as of yet at Cambie, the LRT option offers no incentive to me. I would still need to make 2 transfers from the Canada Line to the M-line, there would be no noticeable difference in travel time for me (especially given the fact that there would still be 2 transfers), and it would unnecessarily take away too much road surface along Broadway. So LRT is a 100% no east of Arbutus on Broadway for me, RRT is the only option along this stretch. (and by that, extension of the M line)

This line is not just about UBC.

[SFUVancouver]

I put my vote in for RRT to UBC. I stated in text that Combo 1 is my second choice. Best Bus is the least supportable and I emphatically suggested that it be discarded from further consideration.

[nname]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Well combo one does serve the most important region with RRT (the broadway business district/VGH/Canada Line). UBC would still benefit just not as much as the would with RRT.

UBC would benefit from the extra capacity, but the saving in travel time would probably next to none.

For instance, am peak travel time from Bridgeport to UBC, transfer/pass-up times not included:
Direct 480 - 40min
CL-Langara-49 - 40min
CL-Oakridge-41 - 37min
CL-KingEd-25 - 43min
CL-KingEd-33 - 39min
CL-CityHall-99 - 39min
CL-OlyVill-84 - 37min

CL-CityHall-RRT - 26min
CL-OlyVill-LRT - 36min

Originally Posted by itinerant

Going to UBC, RRT and LRT both have greater capacity per train and frequency of service than current articulated (and non-articulated) buses that move on 20 minute intervals and pass-by people all along the route. Even if surface LRT is the same travel time once you're on the train, it will remove waits and pass-bys that plague current express and local bus routes going to/from UBC.

20 minutes interval? The last time I checked, during weekdays, the 99 is running at least every 5min from 6am-6pm and at least every 12min (going to be every 10min this April) till at least midnight.



I still don't get why they even bother to consider building the RRT underground through the golf course... If they bring it at-grade or even elevated, I think it would produce enough saving that the capital cost would be almost the same as the Combo 1 option...

[Zassk]

Again, let UBC pay for the western part of the line... they have a massive endowment that can fund infrastructure just like this, and an extremely fast-growing community (which will surpass Port Moody in no time) whose development can defray it. I am confident that forcing UBC to pay 10% of the bill would not jeapordize it being built - I expect it would make the line even more likely to be built.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Seeing how I have never been passed up by the 99 as of yet at Cambie, the LRT option offers no incentive to me. I would still need to make 2 transfers from the Canada Line to the M-line, there would be no noticeable difference in travel time for me (especially given the fact that there would still be 2 transfers), and it would unnecessarily take away too much road surface along Broadway. So LRT is a 100% no east of Arbutus on Broadway for me, RRT is the only option along this stretch. (and by that, extension of the M line)

This line is not just about UBC.

It would be one transfer if you stayed on the Canada Line to take the LRT to UBC.

Essentially, Combo 1, spreads out transfer traffic over 4 stations, instead of 2.

EXPO Line UBC-Bound (LRT @ Main)
EXPO Line Broadway-Bound (RRT @ Commercial)
Canada Line UBC-Bound (LRT @ Oly Village)
Canada Line Broadway-Bound (RRT @ Broadway/Cambie)

[Metro-One]

No, I was saying I travel from south Van to SFU, right now it is 2 transfers (not including the 145 transfer)

With the M-Line extended to Cambie, then it would only be 1 transfer (C-line to M-line direct!)

Having LRT along Broadway does not help me at all, and given the price tag, is a huge waste of money for only partial gains.

We need RRT to at least Cambie (preferably to UC, but I will take to Arbutus).

this is why it is either RRT, Combo 1 or to a lesser degree combo 2. No pure LRT or bus options.