Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[nname]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Again, I feel the opposite, as option 1 the LRT follows along Vancouver's street car plan. The LRT stretch west of Arbutus could be upgraded to RRT eventually, and the remaining LRT/streetcar stretch can then be made to coninue down Arbutus as a North / South corridor.

The LRT/Streetcar stretch can always be done as a separate project, as a secondary line rather than a trunk line (and I too wish to see it somedays). But running LRT on western Broadway would almost guaranteed that the line would not expand furthur unless we want to throw away 500+ millions worth of asset...

[twoNeurons]

Evaluating all factors, I think Combo 2 is the best one to take.

Combo 1 seems expensive, though I'd like to see that route be part of the street car network and veer south at Arbutus rather than run along broadway.

RRT to UBC is still hard to justify doing all in one shot. With so many other regional priorities SOF it would be a tough 3B$ to swallow.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by nname

The latest version of the seven alternatives being considered:

RRT LRT1 LRT2 Combo1 Combo2 BRT BestBus

The latest projection for RRT is 322,000 weekday riders by 2041... hmm....

They changed up the 2 most important numbers, and that's the travel time. Somehow Skytrain got faster and LRT got slower, so now I'm starting to think that these documents that Translink publishes are nothing more than Skytrain propaganda.

I'm all for grade separated rail up to Arbutus, but I'd like to think the public is getting objective information as we are the ones paying for this expensive piece of infrastructure.

[Metro-One]

They could have reduced stations along the RRT route and / or gathered better traffic data analysis / interactions for the LRT.

[nname]

Originally Posted by logan5

hey changed up the 2 most important numbers, and that's the travel time. Somehow Skytrain got faster and LRT got slower, so now I'm starting to think that these documents that Translink publishes are nothing more than Skytrain propaganda.

The original estimate put the average speed of SkyTrain at about 37km/h, probably very slow for SkyTrain. At current estimate of 40km/h, the estimate is still a bit slow.

Some of the travel time increase for LRT may be associated with delay in signal, as in the consultation material, it clearly stated that the LRT will have signal priority at most intersections (in other word, it may not have signal priority in a few intersections?)

And did you notice the cost estimate for SkyTrain went up by 300 millions? So much for a Skytrain propaganda, eh?

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Combo 1 completely misses the section of Central Broadway that is in greatest need of rapid transit!

Can you explain? IMO the section of Central Broadway in greatest need of rapid trainset (forget that BRT stuff) is Main to Arbutus. West of that it's mainly UBC traffic and isn't really central broadway any more.

Combo 1 provides the highest level of service for Central Broadway as it is served not only by RRT but also by LRT a couple of blocks away.

I could see Combo 1 causing a crush problem on the Canada Line between City Hall and Olympic Village: people from Evergreen / Millenium board Canada Line to get downtown while UBC-bound passengers stay on until Olympic Village to secure a one-seat ride to UBC. The result could mean over-capacity operation between the two stations. I prefer RRT option built in phases.

[red-paladin]

I still think RRT is the only suitable solution, and picked it on the survey.

[Metro-One]

No where on their website can i find where i can vote for which option. all i can find under their 'be part of the plan" is just their findings from their 2011 seminars.

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by logan5

They changed up the 2 most important numbers, and that's the travel time. Somehow Skytrain got faster and LRT got slower, so now I'm starting to think that these documents that Translink publishes are nothing more than Skytrain propaganda.

I'm all for grade separated rail up to Arbutus, but I'd like to think the public is getting objective information as we are the ones paying for this expensive piece of infrastructure.

All the analysis, numbers etc. are produced by Steer Davies Gleave, a consulting company, since they won the contract to do the analysis. I don't think they have any connection to TransLink, they look international...

http://www.steerdaviesgleave.com/ouroffices/vancouver/key-projects

I don't think they are biased pro-SkyTrain as they are also the ones who developed the scrapped LRT option for the Evergreen Line:

http://www.steerdaviesgleave.com/casestudies/evergreen-light-rail-transit

[officedweller]

For Combo1 - the LRT and RRT - although parallel, the LRT from Arbutus to Main serves a couple of important functions:
- Connects to the most likely place for an LRT rail yard - False Creek Flats;
- Provides a "one transfer (to UBC)" option to both Expo Line (@ Main St.) and Millennium Line (@ Arbutus) riders;
- Provides rapid transit to Granville Island (and Olympic Village although the latter is already served by Main Street Station);
- Provides intermediate stops absent from the RRT option (@ Burrard, as well as west of MacDonald and on the UBC Endowment Lands); and
- Can be expanded down the Arbutus corridor.

[racc]

Originally Posted by logan5

They changed up the 2 most important numbers, and that's the travel time. Somehow Skytrain got faster and LRT got slower, so now I'm starting to think that these documents that Translink publishes are nothing more than Skytrain propaganda.

I'm all for grade separated rail up to Arbutus, but I'd like to think the public is getting objective information as we are the ones paying for this expensive piece of infrastructure.

I suspect they took a close look at the number of cross streets and amount of pedestrians crossings and realized that they would have to run LRT pretty slow to prevent collisions, injuries and fatalities. As collisions disrupt service and increase costs, it is pretty essential to run at slower speeds even from a providing good reliable transit service point of view.

This is pretty much what I've observed in other cities like Portland and Porto Portugal. They are really fast when they are segregated but when they are in a urban environment like Broadway, they go really slow.

[racc]

The material is rather biased against RRT as they only included the capital cost and did not include the net cost including operating and capital cost and ridership revenue. If they would have done this, RRT would have fared even better.

[crazyjoeda]

The City of Vancouver's wants an extension of the M-Line in a bored tunnel underneath Broadway to at least Arbutus. Based on what I've heard from the CoV I don't think LRT or rapid bus are seriously being considered.

[flight_from_kamakura]

combo 1! all the street-livening benefits in the neighborhoods west of arbutus that want precisely that, very rapid transit the length of the business/residential corridor from arbutus to commercial, hoohoo...

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

RRT to UBC is still hard to justify doing all in one shot. With so many other regional priorities SOF it would be a tough 3B$ to swallow.

Choosing RRT doesn't mean it has to be built all in one shot. I would assume that it would be built in phases interleaved with SOF rail projects and the Victoria rail project.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura

combo 1! all the street-livening benefits in the neighborhoods west of arbutus that want precisely that, very rapid transit the length of the business/residential corridor from arbutus to commercial, hoohoo...

Agreed! I think people are also not taking into account that west of Arbutus LRT is an easier sell.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Choosing RRT doesn't mean it has to be built all in one shot. I would assume that it would be built in phases interleaved with SOF rail projects and the Victoria rail project.

Combo 2 with RRT to Arbutus and Rapid bus to UBC would be a good option that would allow staging. There is little or no advantage to LRT and the cost is much greater than the Rapid Bus. Then by 2030 or so, hopefully, RRT would be extended all the way to UBC.

[officedweller]

Yeah, that's the advantage of Combo 2 - but the naysayers will tout it as just moving the B-Line line-ups to Arbutus where there will still be overcrowding
(although Broadway office corridor passengers won't be riding the B-Line west of Arbutus)

[Echowinds]

The problem with street level LRT along Broadway isn't going to be a whole lot faster than the current 99B service, as the 99B moves reasonably fast already west of Arbutus. In fact, I rather do combo 2 if straight up RRT to UBC is no-go right off the bat, because if the LRT's in place there's no chance a RRT line would ever be extended to UBC. Going by Translink's study, the LRT option beats the BRT option by around 3 minutes (from Commercial to UBC), at the cost of the opportunity to ever built RRT to UBC and a cool 700 million. I think you still have quite a significant chunk leftover even if you use that money to build the streetcar leg between Arbutus and Main Street-Science World that should tie in with the DT streetcar network.

Considering UBC is one of the largest destination in the region, as well as being a fast growing town centre in its own right, it is reasonable to think that it fits into the Skytrain's inter-regional connectivity prowess.

RRT is of course my first choice, but if its too much money I'd prefer combo 2, even if it means less total rail. I am simply not fond of street-level LRT in dense urban areas being used as a regional-mover, because it barely does better than BRT for a lot less flexibility.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Echowinds

Considering UBC is one of the largest destination in the region, as well as being a fast growing town centre in its own right, it is reasonable to think that it fits into the Skytrain's inter-regional connectivity prowess.

What's the bus passenger level like past Arbutus? Would BRT have the capacity to accommodate the loads?