Highways in Canada

[sonysnob]

I'm not advocating paving everything, but the accusation that Downtown America has declined solely because streets were torn up for freeways is untrue. There were numerous socioeconomic factors that led to the decline of major US city downtown's.

Part of that Allen that was built was built through an established neighbourhood, the section between Eglinton and Roselawn certainly doesn't appear worse for wear because of the expressway. Check out streetview and try and find some decline because some of the neighbourhood was chopped away:

http://g.co/maps/vmm4v

Is Weston Road really better off having traffic funneled along it instead of along a Hwy 400 extension?

http://g.co/maps/vd7ec

Like it or not, the car exists, and unless your destination is downtown, transit is only really a viable option if you can't afford a car. Not designing the city for automobile is diverting traffic onto residential streets instead of on thoroughfares designed for the car.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I'm not advocating paving everything, but the accusation that Downtown America has declined solely because streets were torn up for freeways is untrue.

Not sure who's making that accusation in this thread. Not me, anyway. But expressways are indeed one aspect of the auto-dominated postwar ethos that decimated downtowns.

There were numerous socioeconomic factors that led to the decline of major US city downtown's.

The primary reason was postwar suburban sprawl. The grand dream was (still is, really) to live in a "safe" suburban area in a huge house with a huge front and back yard with one car for each person of driving age in the house. You would drive absolutely everywhere.

To state the bleedin' obvious.

[Taeolas]

It's a US Highway plan, but it's primarily going to affect Canadians.

Maine revives proposed highway to Quebec It would be a toll highway from Calais to the Quebec boarder. Of course Quebec would have to upgrade the rest of the road to their highway system too.

From the sounds of it, there does seem to be a stronger desire for it; and IMO it is needed to improve the Canadian Atlantic coast connections to the rest of Canada. I just never expected Maine would ever do this. (Of course making it a TOLL road will help. All the funds from Canadians going across would be extra money for them).

My own rough calculations (based on Google maps) is that this will cut about 200km, or 2-3 hours off a trip from Saint John to Montreal, bringing that easily into day trip territory.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It's a US Highway plan, but it's primarily going to affect Canadians.

Maine revives proposed highway to Quebec It would be a toll highway from Calais to the Quebec boarder. Of course Quebec would have to upgrade the rest of the road to their highway system too.

From the sounds of it, there does seem to be a stronger desire for it; and IMO it is needed to improve the Canadian Atlantic coast connections to the rest of Canada. I just never expected Maine would ever do this. (Of course making it a TOLL road will help. All the funds from Canadians going across would be extra money for them).

My own rough calculations (based on Google maps) is that this will cut about 200km, or 2-3 hours off a trip from Saint John to Montreal, bringing that easily into day trip territory.

Not sure how financially viable the eastern portion between I-95 and Calais would be. Canadian travellers on this stretch would be pretty much only people going to and from Saint John. I would think that most Canadians would get off the toll road at the junction with I-95 and then go up towards the TCH (NB 2) to get to the rest of New Brunswick, and the rest of Atlantic Canada.

[Taeolas]

True, for people between Fredericton and about Grand Falls, it would probably be shorter to go to Woodstock, and take I-95 down to the Toll Highway and carry that to Montreal. But for people from Saint John, Moncton, NS and PEI, the shorter route would probably be the Calais route, which isn't an insignificant number of people. (It brings Moncton to Montreal into a 'quick' 1 day drive range for example.)

Regardless, there is probably enough demand, both from people and for shipping, to make the toll road profitable.

Ideally they would design this highway with a railway right of way already allocated so they could put tracks down and get trains along there too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Ideally they would design this highway with a railway right of way already allocated so they could put tracks down and get trains along there too.

There already is a rail line from Montreal though Maine to Saint John:

http://www.mmarail.com/downloads/mma_rail_map.pdf

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

True, for people between Fredericton and about Grand Falls, it would probably be shorter to go to Woodstock, and take I-95 down to the Toll Highway and carry that to Montreal. But for people from Saint John, Moncton, NS and PEI, the shorter route would probably be the Calais route, which isn't an insignificant number of people. (It brings Moncton to Montreal into a 'quick' 1 day drive range for example.)

Regardless, there is probably enough demand, both from people and for shipping, to make the toll road profitable.

It would only be worth it to go through Saint John for Moncton, PEI and NS if the Maine toll route between I-95 were four-lanes and if NB upgraded its Route 1 to four lanes all the way to the border.

[jmt18325]

New Brunswick is already doing that, and is scheduled to finish next year.

[eemy]

The article said the proposed route is a two-lane road.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It would only be worth it to go through Saint John for Moncton, PEI and NS if the Maine toll route between I-95 were four-lanes and if NB upgraded its Route 1 to four lanes all the way to the border.

The Route 1 Gateway Project will be completed in the next year or so. Doubling Route 1 between Lepreau and St. Stephen. The section outside St. Stephen has already been completed.

From what i've read the desire to build this road is coming from businesses. The money for this project is coming solely from the private sector and will be using upgraded forestry-trucking roads. The Route 1 Project in Southern New Brunswick is happening because of Irving, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were pushing for this highway through Maine as well.

I drove from Saint John to Montreal last week through Northern New Brunswick and Quebec and it was about a ten hour drive with stops for food (and Quebec's lower speed limit ). A highway through Maine would cut quite a few hours off that trip, even if it is only a two-lane highway with a lot of transport trucks.

If this project is going to cost $1billion, where is that money going if they are not doubling the existing roads?

[leftimage]

Wait a second, will this have any effect on the drive times from Montreal to St.Johns, Moncton, etc?

I was totally unaware of this development, but have lots of family in NB and wouldn't mind seeing the (ridiculously long) driving distance shortened!

[sonysnob]

Canada should just annex northern Maine.

Besides I am not sure if anybody actually leaves Montreal:

You weren't really going to drive to Ontario were you?

[vid]

I don't understand how Maine was allowed to end up in America in the first place. It's clearly a Canadian province! They even speak French!

It's not like America needs it, anyway.

[someone123]

I hope they follow through with the Maine highway. Saint John is around 570 km away from Montreal as the crow flies (about the same distance as Montreal-Hamilton) and it takes about 10 hours to drive between the two cities. The highway through Northern NB is horribly inefficient and is the sort of thing that really hurts economic competitiveness.

When it comes to the Maritimes, for whatever reason, there is a tendency for people to shrug their shoulders and accept economic sluggishness as a fact of life rather than dealing with frequently correctable root causes.

[jmt18325]

Well, in all fairness, much of the cross Canada trade still won't go through Maine. Crossing the border can be a real hassle for cargo transport.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by leftimage

Wait a second, will this have any effect on the drive times from Montreal to St.Johns, Moncton, etc?

It cuts anywhere between 200-300KM off the drive from Saint John-Montreal, depending on the route they take through Maine. It's a nine/ten hour drive right now going through Edmundston, and that drive north through New Brunswick is a loooong one.

Originally Posted by someone123

Saint John is around 570 km away from Montreal as the crow flies (about the same distance as Montreal-Hamilton) and it takes about 10 hours to drive between the two cities. The highway through Northern NB is horribly inefficient and is the sort of thing that really hurts economic competitiveness.

It is very inefficient. A highway directly from NB to Montreal is something that i've been hoping for for a very, very long time. As you said, in a straight line it's a pretty quick drive, but having to drive all the way around Maine is beyond a hassle. There are roads that you can drive that cross into Quebec from New Hampshire, but those are back roads and you still have to drive down to southern Maine on the way.

Originally Posted by someone123

When it comes to the Maritimes, for whatever reason, there is a tendency for people to shrug their shoulders and accept economic sluggishness as a fact of life rather than dealing with frequently correctable root causes.

Well, you know how it is. Separated from the rest of Canada, have a much smaller population, etc. etc.

Originally Posted by vid

It's not like America needs it, anyway.

When I went on a road-trip through the southern states a year and a half ago I would tell people I was from Maine because nobody even knew what a New Brunswick was. I had to do this as far north as Maryland and Delaware. More Americans will know of Nova Scotia or PEI but have no idea about New Brunswick.

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Besides I am not sure if anybody actually leaves Montreal:

You weren't really going to drive to Ontario were you?

lol!
Nice, a U turn on the highway to Ontario. Last chance to reconsider your options huh. Or perhaps its for all those people who like taking the long way to Montreal. In any case that's just priceless.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by rousseau

From what i gather, opposition to the Scarborough Expressway came mainly from people east of the Don Valley, mainly in Scarborough, and not from downtowners.

East of the Don Valley is not Scarborough, that would be East of Victoria Park. Most of the opposition came from people who lived between Victoria Park Avenue and the DVP. Today, of course, some of the most valuable neighbourhoods in the city are located here, but this was achieved at the expense of Scarborough.

Originally Posted by rousseau

Toronto's vibrancy is indeed partly due to the fact that people pushed back against expressways. How could it not be? It suggests a citizenry unwilling to have its neighbourhoods carved up for the sake of automobiles, further suggesting a greater degree of care about the integrity of its neighbourhoods and the political will to protest.

I think it more accurately reflects a citizenry that is willing to defend its own self-interest. We can see it manifesting again in the great Transit Debate of 2012: people want the best for their neighbourhoods, and don't necessarily care about what happens to others. There's nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be dressed up as pure altruism.

Originally Posted by niwell

And for the record traffic in Scarborough is actually pretty good due to the dense arterial road network and the width of Kingston Rd east of the Danforth split. It's transit neglect is another story, but having been to every corner of the 416 from downtown (for work) via transit it's still not too bad. The worst by far to access from downtown is northwest Etobicoke.

Depends what direction you're going in. From North to South and vice versa, the very closely spaced concessions are a godsend. But moving in any other direction, they are a nightmare. Driving along a street like Finch Avenue from East to West is even more agonizing during rush hour because of the very large number of unsynchronized lights that you encounter. Kingston Road is useless because it doesn't provide a direct route to downtown, once you've passed the Danforth fork, you either have to weave through The Beaches or inch your way along Danforth Avenue.

Getting to Northwest Etobicoke by transit is a challenge, but it's also well-served by expressways. Getting to somewhere like, oh, Markham and Eglinton is a hassle no matter which mode of transport you choose.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Wharn

East of the Don Valley is not Scarborough, that would be East of Victoria Park. Most of the opposition came from people who lived between Victoria Park Avenue and the DVP. Today, of course, some of the most valuable neighbourhoods in the city are located here, but this was achieved at the expense of Scarborough.



I think it more accurately reflects a citizenry that is willing to defend its own self-interest. We can see it manifesting again in the great Transit Debate of 2012: people want the best for their neighbourhoods, and don't necessarily care about what happens to others. There's nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be dressed up as pure altruism.




Depends what direction you're going in. From North to South and vice versa, the very closely spaced concessions are a godsend. But moving in any other direction, they are a nightmare. Driving along a street like Finch Avenue from East to West is even more agonizing during rush hour because of the very large number of unsynchronized lights that you encounter. Kingston Road is useless because it doesn't provide a direct route to downtown, once you've passed the Danforth fork, you either have to weave through The Beaches or inch your way along Danforth Avenue.

Getting to Northwest Etobicoke by transit is a challenge, but it's also well-served by expressways. Getting to somewhere like, oh, Markham and Eglinton is a hassle no matter which mode of transport you choose.

Could the lack of transit be a reason why NW Etobicoke is one of the poorer parts of Toronto?

Markham and Eglinton should, IMO, be served by an extended Bloor-Danforth subway, leaving the Scarborough RT (or whatever replaces it) as a separate line.

[eemy]

With the 80th anniversary of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, one of the things mentioned about it is that it is the widest long-span bridge in the world. (49 metres wide, 503 metre span)

Looking at the New Port Mann Bridge, it looks like it might supersede the record with a width of 65 metres and span of 470 metres. It also seems that it will break the record for width of a cable-stayed bridge.