General Update/Rumour thread [Urban Ottawa]

[eemy]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I thought it was because 29+ storey buildings decrease the value of your children.

I thought they killed your children. Or has the rhetoric not yet been elevated to that point?

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I thought it was because 29+ storey buildings decrease the value of your children.

HAHAHA. I'm sure Diane Holmes would share this sentiment.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Other than the obligatory but pointless "plaza" out front, that would be OK.

I know where you're coming from, but depending on the context, these plazas need not be 'pointless'. An example of a good plaza is at the World Exchange Centre, where their plaza is extremely well used, and adds much to the CBD. A good plaza at a condo development is the one at Hudson Park, which provides setback to allow the condo-dwellers better views, and non-condo dwellers better views of the rather good-looking buildings.

However, ugly & pointless plazas do abound in this city (ex: Bank of Montreal building - is it a plaza, or surface parking for those who make enough money to thumb their nose at the rest of us; the plaza at Bank/Sparks/Wellington, which despite its potential has been underwhelmingly developed/cared for and is effectively a stark blank open space).

My point is that the plaza is not ipso facto bad, but that plaza design would be essential at the Rideau/King Edward intersection to make sure that this would add rather than detract from surface-level activity.

[DarkArconio]

Let's get rid of all the surface parking in the market and convert it to plazas and public patios with trees and picnic tables first! I am always disappointed how what should be the very most pedestrian focused area of the city is still so car oriented. Any cars that decide to pass though should have narrow lanes with cobble-stones to slow them down, and yield to all non-motorized traffic, with no on street parking in the market itself.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by DarkArconio

Let's get rid of all the surface parking in the market and convert it to plazas and public patios with trees and picnic tables first! I am always disappointed how what should be the very most pedestrian focused area of the city is still so car oriented. Any cars that decide to pass though should have narrow lanes with cobble-stones to slow them down, and yield to all non-motorized traffic, with no on street parking in the market itself.

If you turn all surface parking lots into parks and have no parking in the market you risk people who don't live downtown just say if i can't park in the market i am not going to go and you could see a big drop in people going to the market.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by reidjr

If you turn all surface parking lots into parks and have no parking in the market you risk people who don't live downtown just say if i can't park in the market i am not going to go and you could see a big drop in people going to the market.

if you are interested here's the parking study recently done for the market
http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit.../trc/02%20-%20ByWard%20Market%20LAPS.pdf

and for the downtown rideau area
http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit...-%20Rideau%20LAPS%20Summary%20Report.pdf

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by DarkArconio

Let's get rid of all the surface parking in the market and convert it to plazas and public patios with trees and picnic tables first! I am always disappointed how what should be the very most pedestrian focused area of the city is still so car oriented. Any cars that decide to pass though should have narrow lanes with cobble-stones to slow them down, and yield to all non-motorized traffic, with no on street parking in the market itself.

Amen. My fantasy for the ByWard Market is that it becomes something like Boston's Quincy Market / Faneuil Hall:



I was in the ByWard Market on Sunday and the shortage of places to sit is pathetic. It also seems like most of the traffic is caused by drivers going around and around in search of empty parking spots on the street. If enough parking garages were built (e.g., a large underground garage under York Street) and electronic boards directing divers to available spots, most of the surface parking should be eliminated to create more space for people.

I'd also love to see something like a gourmet food truck area, and bring the street food trend up a notch in this city.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I was in the ByWard Market on Sunday and the shortage of places to sit is pathetic. It also seems like most of the traffic is caused by drivers going around and around in search of empty parking spots on the street. If enough parking garages were built (e.g., a large underground garage under York Street) and electronic boards directing divers to available spots, most of the surface parking should be eliminated to create more space for people.

I'd also love to see something like a gourmet food truck area, and bring the street food trend up a notch in this city.

Underground parking would be good. As for gourmet food truck, I would love to see Japadog come to Ottawa.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

if you are interested here's the parking study recently done for the market
http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit.../trc/02%20-%20ByWard%20Market%20LAPS.pdf

and for the downtown rideau area
http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit...-%20Rideau%20LAPS%20Summary%20Report.pdf

Do you really think a car free market area would be a good thing?

[Nepean]

Originally Posted by reidjr

Do you really think a car free market area would be a good thing?

In a word: Yes.

I recently came back from Santiago, Chile where I was visiting my family. (I travelled with my wife and baby daughter). In downtown Santiago, there are several streets that are closed to cars and open only to pedestrians. The result is an incredibly vibrant business area that is filled with pedestrians that are shopping, eating at restaurants, sitting at cafes or going for a stroll during lunch. Walking through these streets made me imagine what the Byward market would look like if it was closed to cars.

The trick, in my view, is to build parking garages on the perimeter of the Byward market in order to allow suburbanites to come with their cars. But once inside the market, a pedestrian-only area would be a boon to business, and would make the pedestrian experience much, much better.

I have been to numerous cities around the world that have pedestrian-only neighbourhoods and I have seen with my own eyes how these areas improve the quality of life in their respective cities. There is no reason to think why it can’t also happen in Ottawa.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by Nepean

In a word: Yes.

I recently came back from Santiago, Chile where I was visiting my family. (I travelled with my wife and baby daughter). In downtown Santiago, there are several streets that are closed to cars and open only to pedestrians. The result is an incredibly vibrant business area that is filled with pedestrians that are shopping, eating at restaurants, sitting at cafes or going for a stroll during lunch. Walking through these streets made me imagine what the Byward market would look like if it was closed to cars.

The trick, in my view, is to build parking garages on the perimeter of the Byward market in order to allow suburbanites to come with their cars. But once inside the market, a pedestrian-only area would be a boon to business, and would make the pedestrian experience much, much better.

I have been to numerous cities around the world that have pedestrian-only neighbourhoods and I have seen with my own eyes how these areas improve the quality of life in their respective cities. There is no reason to think why it can’t also happen in Ottawa.

The issue is Ottawa you have yes the Market you have Gatineau plus to a lesser degree you have Kanata/Barrheaven/Orleans all in the next 5-10 years could have a downtown type scnene.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by reidjr

The issue is Ottawa you have yes the Market you have Gatineau plus to a lesser degree you have Kanata/Barrheaven/Orleans all in the next 5-10 years could have a downtown type scnene.

Actually I would say that compared to most cities in the world the Byward Market is fairly unchallenged by rival downtown-type areas in this area. And it will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, even if the areas you mentioned did liven up a bit.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Actually I would say that compared to most cities in the world the Byward Market is fairly unchallenged by rival downtown-type areas in this area. And it will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, even if the areas you mentioned did liven up a bit.

I know a fair amount of people that use to go downtown alot now many of them don't as much it just to hard in terms of parking etc now if you make it even harder to go downtown i don't think it would go over well with those from outside downtown.

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by reidjr

I know a fair amount of people that use to go downtown alot now many of them don't as much it just to hard in terms of parking etc now if you make it even harder to go downtown i don't think it would go over well with those from outside downtown.

Hence, as Nepean said:

The trick, in my view, is to build parking garages on the perimeter of the Byward market in order to allow suburbanites to come with their cars.

[DarkArconio]

Parking is no doubt important, and there are a number of public parking garages in and around the market. It doesn't need to be car free, york and george are more than wide enough to have narrow lanes for cars and horse carriages in the summer with drop off/ pick up points. I'm also not arguing for the removal of the parking spots that serve as the market stalls. Just we don't need cars taking up these wonderful public spaces when we could hide them in a car and put the space to better use. Whenever I buy lunch in the area, I invariably leave to eat at the office because there's nowhere to sit other than the rideau centre... And as the studies appear to indicate, off street parking is only moderately used, so removal of onstreet parking from george and york between sussex and dal shouldn't hurt supply that much.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by DarkArconio

Parking is no doubt important, and there are a number of public parking garages in and around the market. It doesn't need to be car free, york and george are more than wide enough to have narrow lanes for cars and horse carriages in the summer with drop off/ pick up points. I'm also not arguing for the removal of the parking spots that serve as the market stalls. Just we don't need cars taking up these wonderful public spaces when we could hide them in a car and put the space to better use. Whenever I buy lunch in the area, I invariably leave to eat at the office because there's nowhere to sit other than the rideau centre... And as the studies appear to indicate, off street parking is only moderately used, so removal of onstreet parking from george and york between sussex and dal shouldn't hurt supply that much.

If they did do something like that you would have to build more parking could it work sure and yes it would be nice to have more public areas.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

I know where you're coming from, but depending on the context, these plazas need not be 'pointless'.

They need not be, but in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, they are.

An example of a good plaza is at the World Exchange Centre, where their plaza is extremely well used

Well, midday workdays for about 8 to 10 weeks during the summer, yes.

My point is that the plaza is not ipso facto bad, but that plaza design would be essential at the Rideau/King Edward intersection to make sure that this would add rather than detract from surface-level activity.

Plaza design is almost entirely incidental.

It's location, location, location. And purpose, esp. as related to the use of the buildings adjacent.

Even a bad plaza in the right location will work. A "good" plaza from a design perspective, in a bad location, never will.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I was in the ByWard Market on Sunday and the shortage of places to sit is pathetic.

Ottawa has an anti-seating thing going on. Cf. the lack of sitosity in our craptacular transit "stations".

I'd also love to see something like a gourmet food truck area, and bring the street food trend up a notch in this city.

Food trucks? Restaurant-killing, children-killing food trucks?

In Ottawa?

Where you can't even buy a fruit basket on the street?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by reidjr

The issue is Ottawa you have yes the Market you have Gatineau plus to a lesser degree you have Kanata/Barrheaven/Orleans all in the next 5-10 years could have a downtown type scnene.

Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans, will have neither downtowns, nor "scenes", in our lifetimes.

That's on purpose. We have built these suburban uglinesses, and legislated them, by design, to never change, never grow up, never grow in, never evolve.

And thus, they never will.

It's what we want. Apparently.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans, will have neither downtowns, nor "scenes", in our lifetimes.

That's on purpose. We have built these suburban uglinesses, and legislated them, by design, to never change, never grow up, never grow in, never evolve.

And thus, they never will.

It's what we want. Apparently.

I don't know if i would say they never will if things don't change downtown in terms of we don't want this we don't want anything to change we could see groups give up on downtown and focus on places like Kanata etc so its possible those areas could have a downtown area in the future.