DENVER | Transportation Thread

[BG918]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

The preferred alternative for Boulder was DMU.

Although, that's sort of up in the air now, and BRT is being evaluated as a possibility.

I like the look of DMU. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Boulder line. I know it has been discussed to completely eliminate it and favor better BRT instead, or just serve Broomfield/Superior/Louisville/Boulder and not all the way to Longmont. If they decide to build the rail line it will mean a higher tax because of the cost overruns on that portion. Does anyone know their timetable for decision-making?

I would like to see rail from downtown to Boulder, especially since it will stop in the fast-growing cities in between. That's a better growth area for the metro than farther southwest and southeast..IMO.

[seventwenty]

http://denver.bcycle.com/tabid/99/itemid/196/news.aspx

Denver Parks and Recreation, in partnership with Denver Bike Sharing, 501(c)3 non-profit owner and operator of Denver B-cycle, are applying for a grant that would allow us to put an additional 6 bike sharing stations into 4 different parks throughout Denver. We propose to place three stations in City Park (at the Denver Zoo, the Denver Museum of Nature and Science and 17 & Steele), one station in Hungarian Freedom Park, one station at Community Plaza Park, and one station in Marion Parkway. To see the proposed locations for these stations click on the links below:
City Park (on Denver Zoo property, on Denver Museum of Nature and Science property, 17th & Steele)
Hungarian Freedom Park (1st & Emerson)
Community Plaza Park (33rd & Osage)
Marion Parkway (Marion & Virginia)


The schedule of meetings is as follows:
Community Plaza Park: 2/22 at 5:30p, Root Down (1600 W. 33rd Ave.)
RSVP here: http://www.eventbrite.com/event/2947428839

City Park: 2/23 at 6:00p, VIP Meeting Room (Access through main public entrance on the north side of the building), Denver Museum of Nature & Science (2001 Colorado Boulevard)
RSVP here: http://www.eventbrite.com/event/2947549199

Hungarian Freedom Park & Marion Parkway: 2/27 at 6:00p, Volunteers for Outdoor Colorado (600 S. Marion Parkway)
RSVP here:


http://www.eventbrite.com/event/2947597343




If you are unable to attend theses meetings but wish to share your feedback please take our survey: http://bit.ly/xLwZ6N

[Rational Plan3]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Guys, that's not the kind of change I'm talking about. I'm not talking about how many buildings have been built, or rail lines, since 1994. I'm not talking about how rapidly China has developed or other developing nations. I'm talking about a developed nation (the United States), rapidly de-developing into 3rd world status between now and 2030, as Wizend keeps bashing into our brains. Where is an example of a large, powerful, post-industrial, first world nation rapidly declining into all out third world status?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm only saying, how can one such as Wizend, be SO SURE it will happen? There is no scientific data to generate this opinion. It's to squarly based on intuition, beliefs, feelings, etc... I watched Glenn Beck trying to prove how this would happen, with his charts and theories about inflation. He never did prove anything. believe me, he tried as hard or harder than anyone.

I think China's growth is will plateau and is unsustainable. Meanwhile, the United States will continue to be an innovation generator and spawn new industries. Our universities will continue to attract the brightest people from around Earth. I see no reason the USA can't and won't be stronger in the 21st Century, than it was in the 20th.

Inflation, population growth, these are the things which will bring our nation down? On the contrary, inflation makes the US more competitive in International trade and populatin growth generates economic growth.

No matter how hard your politicians seem to be trying I don't think the US is going to collapse into ruin. But countries can throw it all away. Sometimes it takes them a decade or two to get back on track, other times they fritter it all away. The best example being Argentina. Once one of the richest countries in the world, but blew it's lead to stagnation and dictatorship. Since then it has managed to continuously bankrupt themselves.

[awholeparade]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

http://denver.bcycle.com/tabid/99/itemid/196/news.aspx

Thanks. I'll try to make it to the one tomorrow night.

[Teshadoh]

FYI - the RTD 'sale' of BRT to Boulder/Broomfield residents was last night. The video of the meeting as well as the presentations is available here: http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/main_229

My opinion, BRT option #3 is a no-brainer to someone who doesn't care how they there but how long it takes & how many options. BRT is only 4 minutes longer than commuter rail from Denver to Boulder & of course the big difference, rather than every 20 minutes during peak (an hour off peak!), it is only 3 minutes peak & 15 minutes off-peak. Also, due to savings additional BRT lines could be built.

The proposed alignment map demonstrates that - the primary BRT line from Denver to Longmont via Boulder along US 36, Foothills Pkwy, & Diaganol would be supplemented by a line going along US 36 to 96th St near Flatiron Mall into Louisville & north & then east along South Boulder Rd to 287. In addition buses would receive priority along Arapahoe, 287, & Broadway providing a far superior transit system for Boulder County.

Obviously a train would be neat to have but I would prefer the BRT system.

[Teshadoh]

Originally Posted by BG918

I like the look of DMU. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Boulder line. I know it has been discussed to completely eliminate it and favor better BRT instead, or just serve Broomfield/Superior/Louisville/Boulder and not all the way to Longmont. If they decide to build the rail line it will mean a higher tax because of the cost overruns on that portion. Does anyone know their timetable for decision-making?

I would like to see rail from downtown to Boulder, especially since it will stop in the fast-growing cities in between. That's a better growth area for the metro than farther southwest and southeast..IMO.

The RTD Board will vote in March & DRCOG will decide in June.

[Cirrus]

If we go with option 3 will we actually get interline stations BRT stations? Or will buses still have to exit 36 to stop?

[Teshadoh]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

If we go with option 3 will we actually get interline stations BRT stations? Or will buses still have to exit 36 to stop?

They were not specific - they had a BRT expert review different types & they claimed they would, with the money saved from no rail, get the best possible type of BRT. I would assume, it would be seperated BRT lanes - I would hope.

[Teshadoh]

But it doesn't help when the Denver Post is still stating Boulder is supposed to be getting 'light rail' & all the commenters claim they are supposed to be getting 'light rail'. Also the situation is further agravated because it is being addressed as 'Boulder isn't getting light rail, instead they are just getting buses'. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/denverpost/posts/179348878841683

Seriously I do miss taking the train in Atlanta - but besides that self-congragulatory smugness of knowing you are an urbane sophisticated transit hipster, it isn't that big of a deal.

[wong21fr]

^F**k it, throw Longmont a bone and use some FasTracks funding to extend the North Corridor to Longmont and integrate it with the proposal by CDOT for commuter rail from Fort Collins. Also extend the NW Corridor spur up to Westminister to placate them. Give Boulder, Lousville, and Broomfield a kick-ass BRT system and leave it at that.

This is going to be such a politically-fed process with a lot of incentives that are going to have to be dangled in front of the involved parties to get the to play ball.

[BG918]

I think of all the new lines it is important for the NW line to be rail, even if just to Boulder and then BRT to Longmont. That is a high growth area that IMO should be served by a train and not buses, even if it is a nice BRT system. I could see Boulder paying for it too.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by BG918

I think of all the new lines it is important for the NW line to be rail, even if just to Boulder and then BRT to Longmont. That is a high growth area that IMO should be served by a train and not buses, even if it is a nice BRT system. I could see Boulder paying for it too.

Why? NO ONE is going to ride it, hence, the whole reason why we are having this discussion. Boulder is getting dual systems along the corridor which absolutely wrecks the commuter rail ridership due to cannibalization by the existing bus system. Either kill the BRT entirely, including all of the current bus lines from Boulder to Denver, or kill the commuter rail. It's clear that both systems are not necessary.

[Cirrus]

From: Malouff, Dan
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:05 PM
To: Migoya, David
Subject: Boulder was never going to get "light rail"

David,

RTD's plans for rail to Boulder were never for "light rail". They were for heavy rail, an entirely different type of train. Saying "light rail" is every bit as incorrect as saying "subway" or "monorail". Using the term "light rail" is not a simplification. It is incorrect. Using it does your readers a disservice, and is incredibly embarrassing to your publication.

This kind of detail is actually important if you expect to be taken seriously when writing about transportation. You might want to inform your headline writers.

If you would like me to explain the difference, I would be happy to. I can even show you pictures.

Sincerely,

J. Daniel Malouff
Regional Transportation Planner
(contact info redacted from SSP)
… and a CU grad.

From: Migoya, David
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:09 PM
To: Malouff, Dan
Subject: Boulder was never going to get "light rail"

That’s funny….my story never says a thing about light rail, only rail service.
You must mean the headline writer. I’ll pass along the beef. Next time, if it’s under my byline, happy to take the criticism.
I don’t’ write the heads….or the cutlines to photos.

And, no….don’t need to know the difference. I, like you, know.

Thanks for writing!

David Migoya
Business Reporter
Investigations and Personal Finance
The Denver Post
101 W. Colfax Ave.
Denver, CO 80202

nothing to see here

[Teshadoh]

Very nice Cirrus - I also had no idea the headline writers were seperate. That makes sense as so many headlines are usually more sensantional than the actual article.

[Cirrus]

It's fairly standard practice in newspapers.

[Octavian]

Haha, they changed the headline

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Teshadoh

In addition buses would receive priority along Arapahoe, 287, & Broadway providing a far superior transit system for Boulder County.

Obviously a train would be neat to have but I would prefer the BRT system.

You obviously do not live in boulder and use the bus system regularly like I do. the boulder bus into Denver sucks. end of story. always stuffed as shit. always running late. and us36 is a traffic hell hole.

you honestly can not believe that diesel busses are the solution, right? Especially in Boulder, where public transportation is so highly used. a train would be FANTASTIC. RTD should not bite the hand that feeds them (boulder) by delivering a shitty impracticle bus system that also can get snarled in the us36 mess.

please. it is 2012. and you are advocating busses? do you think it is 1964 or something?

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Why? NO ONE is going to ride it, hence, the whole reason why we are having this discussion. Boulder is getting dual systems along the corridor which absolutely wrecks the commuter rail ridership due to cannibalization by the existing bus system. Either kill the BRT entirely, including all of the current bus lines from Boulder to Denver, or kill the commuter rail. It's clear that both systems are not necessary.

you have no idea what the hell you are talking about if you honestly believe that "NO ONE" would use the commuter rail to boulder.

All you need to do is look at the thousands of comments on the denver post facebook article saying things like

"I would never pay for a bus to boulder, but I would take a train any day."
"Busses are for the poor. I don't use busses. I prefer trains."

etc etc etc

I honestly can't believe there are people on this site of all sites arguing against a desperately needed rail transit expansion

[bunt_q]

The projected ridership on the northwest rail line is 8,400 per day. That is by far the lowest of any line in the Fastracks system, and at the latest cost estimate of $1.7 billion, the most expensive line (per rider) in the country, and from what I've looked at, the entire world. If you feel you know something that the professionals who prepared the ridership projections don't, by all means, share it with us. But I'll tell you, I don't find Facebook comments to be terribly persuasive. Experience tells us that the "sexiness factor" of rail over bus is worth 15-30% ridership boost. The FTA allows 30% I think. But that is nowhere near enough to make up for the fact that the northwest rail proposal to Boulder simply doesn't go where people want it to. Which is why every projection has always shown significantly more ridership on the US 36 bus than on the rail. It is irrelevant whether people like rail more, whether they feel they deserve rail, etc. Once it's built, they will make their travel decisions based on access, time, cost, and convenience. And by that measure, you can build the sexiest train in the world, and the US 36 bus still gets more ridership. And that was before real BRT came into the discussion.

Now that real BRT is part of the discussion, people need to take a step back and educate themselves before they criticize something they've never seen. Comparisons to the current bus service? Irrelevant. We're talking a whole different animal, and one which most Americans have never seen. (Pardon me for passing judgment, but the best examples in the world are in Latin America, and I just can't see many snooty Boulderites traveling in Latin America by public transport.)

So do us all a favor and go to a public information session before passing judgment. Real BRT is entirely separated from general traffic. It's off-board fare paid (like the light rail). And it's fast, as fast a train, short dwell times at stations, and THREE minute headways, compared to, at best, 15 for the train. It can be a very sexy mode. You've just never seen it. As they say, don't knock it til you try it.

[bunt_q]

Sorry for any extra flickr garbage, doing this on my phone. But here...

Separate lane:


IMG_5765 by bbutzin, on Flickr

Stations:


IMG_5763 by bbutzin, on Flickr

Level boarding:


_MG_5682 by bbutzin, on Flickr

Wayfinding (and operations) just like a train:


_MG_5697 by bbutzin, on Flickr

EDIT: I dare somebody from Boulder to say "we deserve better than something they would do in Latin America." We all know you're thinking it. But I dare you to come out and say it.