YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by jlousa

My experience has always been AC intl is one of the best while domestic is pretty bad. Noticed the same with BA as well though.

Agreed based on my own experience. AC does their international flights well, even preferred. Domestic flights I tend to not fly with them, ugh! I've had some bad experiences with them. Mostly with their service crews' standard of service and attitude. After a long day of work in Edmonton/Calgary, trying to get home in time for dinner in Vancouver, I really don't appreciate the attendants treating me or watching them treat other passengers like they are noisome children.

[usog]

Just chiming in with a +1 on Westjet not being cheaper. This weekend I'm flying to Orange County and while Westjet has the direct flight from Vancouver its generally 150% more expensive than flying on Air Canada/United with a transfer at SFO which only adds an hour or two of travel time. Also +1 to SFO being nice, I fly through there every year sometimes on the way to Asia and it's definitely a nice airport. They gave me a bit of hassle when I opted out of the scanners but otherwise no problems.

[ACT7]

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

http://www.bivinteractive.com/index.php?...-increase-&catid=14:daily-news&Itemid=46

Thanks!

[Johnny Aussie]

I expect China - Canada travel to really take off in the next few years. Without a doubt it is booming downunder.
Perhaps the new visa arrangements for Chinese nationals and the new trade agreements will help.

Strangely, Air China talks about doubling flights. However, they are reducing capacity back to the one daily only. Also, Air Canada is flipping their PEK and NRT flights again. Right now they are showing PEK back to a 763 and NRT back to a 77W.

[Yume-sama]

^^ AC seems to be switching back to 77W for NRT just in time for Golden Week, in which every single Japanese person in the Country goes on vacation lol

The typical Chinese travel season is around Chinese New Year, and for Japan it's end of April / beginning May.

[golog]

The Canada - China package of agreements are not being released in detail until lawmakers of both countries have approved them. The details that have come out have been from private companies who announced orders.

I saw somewhere that quoted a bureaucrat as saying it was 18 (?) years in the making. It seems like a big one, probably made possible in no small part due to the extradition of Lai Changxing and others
http://www.asianpacificpost.com/article/flight-fugitives-0

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by phesto

Here's a link to the community consultation report for the YVR 2027 Master Plan: http://www.yvr.com/pdf/authority/publicoptions_2027.pdf

And (for those who haven't seen it) the link for what's already planned or u/c for 2010: http://www.yvr.com/pdf/authority/YourAirport2027summary.pdf

What does everyone think of the expansion options? I'd have to see more details regarding the connectivity to RAV but the Northeast terminal expansion option seems most favourable.

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

^ 21 million passengers projected for 2010? Wow...think they're being overly optimistic. Considering the passenger traffic hasn't really increased at YVR in 7 years. 2000 was still the strongest at just over 16 million, and 1998 saw 15.5 million. 2004 was 15.7 million.

Unless they're really counting on the Chinese now taking advantage of travelling to Canada...but still 5 million. That's kinda like TO's projection of hitting 45 million.

Originally Posted by chinookcity

Probably counting on the 4 million passengers for the 2010 olympics.
Calgary on the other hand is blowing away all projections, 2005 is tracking towards 10.3 million up from 9.2 million in 2004.
http://www.calgaryairport.com/fts/getfile.cfm?FID=6441

Just some retrospective posts from 2005 on YVR passenger growth - predicted and real - to hopefully give perspective to some recent discussion on this.

[trofirhen]

If I may, again; a YVR senior marketing person told me that there are several undervalued potential routes from Vancouver, (Paris, quite likely of course) but in particular Vancouver - Miami. Vancouver - Orlando nonstop is blocked by the fact that there is not enough connecting traffic at either terminus to make the route viable, so we'll continue seeing Disneyworld via Toronto.

But Vancouver - Miami? Would that not be profitable going to Caracas, Rio, SP, Buenos Aires? Also Puerto Rico and the Caribbean? We already have Mexico City, and so is that enough?

[jlousa]

If the airlines internal analysis showed that it would be more profitable then the existing service they would already be serving it.
Just like CDG it's been tried but unsuccessful, so the market needs to change before we see it tried again, otherwise it'll continue to be seasonal via charters.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

If I may, again; a YVR senior marketing person told me that there are several undervalued potential routes from Vancouver, (Paris, quite likely of course) but in particular Vancouver - Miami. Vancouver - Orlando nonstop is blocked by the fact that there is not enough connecting traffic at either terminus to make the route viable, so we'll continue seeing Disneyworld via Toronto.

But Vancouver - Miami? Would that not be profitable going to Caracas, Rio, SP, Buenos Aires? Also Puerto Rico and the Caribbean? We already have Mexico City, and so is that enough?

Air Canada used to fly YVR-MIA with an A319. Probably one of the longest North American transcontinental flights (it seemed very long when I last flew it). There's really no incentive for them to connect South America traffic to other carriers in Miami, when it can be done through their own network in Toronto. Given that other carriers, like AA, haven't tried to connect YVR to their South America network, it was likely marginal.

[incognism]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Air Canada used to fly YVR-MIA with an A319. Probably one of the longest North American transcontinental flights (it seemed very long when I last flew it). There's really no incentive for them to connect South America traffic to other carriers in Miami, when it can be done through their own network in Toronto. Given that other carriers, like AA, haven't tried to connect YVR to their South America network, it was likely marginal.

I can't imagine YVR-MIA being high on anybody's list.

As mentioned above, it makes more sense for AC to route passengers through YYZ. WS also flies YYZ-MIA.

For all the comparisons to SEA, AS has 9X weekly to SEA-Orlando and will be pulling their daily non-stop SEA-MIA for SEA-FLL.

Doesn't really seem like there's much demand for non-stop PNW-FL flights.

[mezzanine]

You can access south america on AA via YVR-DFW. you don't have to go thru miami.

If you are star alliance, and you want to avoid YYZ, fly to south america via IAH. Continental has good reach there.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by incognism

I can't imagine YVR-MIA being high on anybody's list.

As mentioned above, it makes more sense for AC to route passengers through YYZ. WS also flies YYZ-MIA.

For all the comparisons to SEA, AS has 9X weekly to SEA-Orlando and will be pulling their daily non-stop SEA-MIA for SEA-FLL.

Doesn't really seem like there's much demand for non-stop PNW-FL flights.

Miami is the gateway to South America, that is why it should be high on the list because currently flying to South America from Vancouver is a real pain.

Over the past 5 years there has been a absolutely huge influx of people from South America to Vancouver, something many people havent noticed. Mostly Brazilians, and generally wealthy, but lots of people also from Argentina, Columbia etc. and they tend to travel back and forth fairly often even if there are limited business connections at the moment. I have a strong connection to Sao Paulo and I know that there is big demand for travel from Vancouver to there and right now its a pain. A connection from YVR to Miami would do wonders as I know that TAM has two daily non stop flights to Sao Paulo and American Airlines also has two weekly non stop flights to Sao Paulo, and I think there are actually more but thats the minimum(16 weekly direct flights just to Sao Paulo).

Also someone mentioned Mexico city...Mexico city has imo surprisingly brutal connections to South America, when I wanted to fly from Mexico city to Sao Paulo last year the best connections were all through the US when I was trying to get a flight.

That is why Miami should be on the radar because its the best connection to South America, something that we lack and the demand really is there. Also of note they are relaxing visa requirements for Brazilians this year so the demand will only be increasing as Brazils upper middle class and higher is as wealthy and traveled as the upper middle class here due to their huge wealth disparity down there. If Canada were to ever lift visa restrictions between Brazil and Argentina, and knowing the facts I think it is likely going to happen this decade for these two countries then Brazil and Argentina will also lift visa restrictions fro Canadians and back and froth travel will explode, I would think any airline that establishes a good connection before this happens would stand to benefit.

As it stands now Canadians need visas to enter Brazil or Argentina or Paraguay and I cant remember which other south American countries but those for sure as they have a policy of imposing visas on nationals of countries who require visas for their citizens. Brazilians and Argentinians dont need visas to enter the EU and vice versa so since Canada and USA are already moving towards that direction it makes sense to assume that completely lifting visa restrictions like the EU has is the end goal(mind you Portugal and Spains relationship to south America is a big help in the EU's case).

[Valley_Refugee]

As it stands now Canadians need visas to enter Brazil or Argentina or Paraguay

The visa to enter Argentina is really only a formality - easily obtained upon landing for a fee, and valid for 5 years (I was just in Argentina last year). I think the Brazilian one may require advance application.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee

The visa to enter Argentina is really only a formality - easily obtained upon landing for a fee, and valid for 5 years (I was just in Argentina last year). I think the Brazilian one may require advance application.

Not sure about Paraguay, but yes, Argentina is a financial formality upon arrival. Brazil, however, can be a nightmare, depending on what city you live in. The different consulates have different processing times. Vancouver's of late has been absolutely brutal, upwards of 50 business days. Yes, you read that correctly. FIFTY!! I actually had to cancel my vacation to Rio last year because of it. I checked in person at the consulate before booking my flight, and then went in to get it done and they had doubled their processing time since my visit.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

Not sure about Paraguay, but yes, Argentina is a financial formality upon arrival. Brazil, however, can be a nightmare, depending on what city you live in. The different consulates have different processing times. Vancouver's of late has been absolutely brutal, upwards of 50 business days. Yes, you read that correctly. FIFTY!! I actually had to cancel my vacation to Rio last year because of it. I checked in person at the consulate before booking my flight, and then went in to get it done and they had doubled their processing time since my visit.

Yeah the consulate in Vancouver states minimum of 14 days for Brasil but I know they stretch it out as long as possible, often require bs papers and even deny visas just for the sake of denying them, but that will be changing now. Its their policy to treat Canadians in a similar manner that Brasilians are treated, and they are directed as such in the consulate here. If you are in Brasil and a non Canadian it is even a bigger pain in the ass to get any sort of appointment or contact with a Canadian consulate. I respect them for doing this and standing up for their citizens, unlike some other countries that dont have the balls to slap heavy visa restrictions, match all fees, etc. when the same is done to them. But like I said the visa process is being simplified which will work in both directions. I agree that Argentina is usually just a formality but I have heard them also deny people. Paraguay is a hassle but it is so corrupt that if you know what you are doing then no problem.

Regardless I also have a EU passport so I dont have any issues nor do I require a visa, last time I didnt even have a return ticket when I flew in(though I would certainly not recommend that). It is also theoretically possible for me to obtain a Brazilian passport(mercosur) via marriage so I suppose I am a bit lucky. Thats what you get when you all over the place I suppose.

But anyways yea as the restrictions ease the demand will increase and there lots of Brazilians and other south americans who have come here in the last few years and generate likely decent demand already for better south american connections. If the visa restrictions are ever lifted which is possible this decade then the demand will skyrocket.

[Valley_Refugee]

But anyways yea as the restrictions ease the demand will increase and there lots of Brazilians and other south americans who have come here in the last few years and generate likely decent demand already for better south american connections. If the visa restrictions are ever lifted which is possible this decade then the demand will skyrocket.

I would imagine, though, that any increase in demand would still not merit a direct flight. It would probably manifest through increased 1 change connecting service...e.g. increased AA service through DFW, UA/CO service thru IAH or IAD, and DL service thru ATL.

[Gordon]

It would be good if Delta would return the yvr Atl summer route to daily from 3 of 4 times \wk. you would think that a 319 one class configuration would work .

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee

I would imagine, though, that any increase in demand would still not merit a direct flight. It would probably manifest through increased 1 change connecting service...e.g. increased AA service through DFW, UA/CO service thru IAH or IAD, and DL service thru ATL.

Sometimes, though, it's chicken and egg.

If there's a direct flight, over time demand would grow due to the nature of there being a direct flight. However, no one wants to run a flight until there's enough demand to run a direct flight.

Hawaii's a recent example of this. There weren't that many direct Hawaii flights until a decade or so ago. I believe it was WestJet that pushed demand for that market and now there are lots of competing flights to multiple destinations in Hawaii. It doesn't hurt being Hawaii, mind you.

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Yeah the consulate in Vancouver states minimum of 14 days for Brasil but I know they stretch it out as long as possible, often require bs papers and even deny visas just for the sake of denying them, but that will be changing now. Its their policy to treat Canadians in a similar manner that Brasilians are treated, and they are directed as such in the consulate here. If you are in Brasil and a non Canadian it is even a bigger pain in the ass to get any sort of appointment or contact with a Canadian consulate. I respect them for doing this and standing up for their citizens, unlike some other countries that dont have the balls to slap heavy visa restrictions, match all fees, etc. when the same is done to them. But like I said the visa process is being simplified which will work in both directions. I agree that Argentina is usually just a formality but I have heard them also deny people. Paraguay is a hassle but it is so corrupt that if you know what you are doing then no problem.

Regardless I also have a EU passport so I dont have any issues nor do I require a visa, last time I didnt even have a return ticket when I flew in(though I would certainly not recommend that). It is also theoretically possible for me to obtain a Brazilian passport(mercosur) via marriage so I suppose I am a bit lucky. Thats what you get when you all over the place I suppose.

But anyways yea as the restrictions ease the demand will increase and there lots of Brazilians and other south americans who have come here in the last few years and generate likely decent demand already for better south american connections. If the visa restrictions are ever lifted which is possible this decade then the demand will skyrocket.

I don' thtink they stretch it out at all, I just applied for mine in January, 10 weeks before my trip. I got it in 11 days (including the time it was with Canada Post). The reason I applied so early is that my colleague went last year and it took six weeks plus Delivery time. I think it is really just about how any apps come through the door in any given week.

Don't get me wrong, it is a still a pain in the ass, it's just not that consular staff are out to screw you over.