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  #4141  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2012, 4:31 AM
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"Land development". If this project were actually active, there would be a lot more press. This may be code for something we don't really want to hear...and I can tell you that those of us who are actually active in Atlanta are all wondering about our friends at OM. Maybe they bit off more than they could chew, but NOBODY knows what's going on with the project and that is not really a good sign.

Meanwhile Jamestown executed 4 new leases for White Provision and is soon going to be visually active with Ponce City Market. Now there's a company doing a lot for the city of Atlanta, and I emphasize FOR, haha (tongue in cheek of course).
     
     
  #4142  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2012, 4:05 PM
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So reading that article in the ABC about the new progress at Buckhead Atlanta, I can't help but re-evaluate what I said before.

Considering the debt already placed, the prominence of the developer, and the amount of equity lined up...this thing is actually happening at some scale or another. Supposing the equity parties involved could exit and sell off the land, they would get nothing for it and there is that massive debt issue. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. There are no shame on me parties in Atlanta to that degree anymore. I think everyone is cautiously optimistic at best about investing here right now.

I still believe they bit off more than they can chew. What retailers are going to want to go in? Here are the new plans:

Quote:
In December, the developer filed new plans for Buckhead Atlanta with the state, calling for 370 residential units, 98,360 square feet of office space and 346,006 square feet of retail space. The first phase is scheduled for completion in 2014.
Considering this site and this project and the amount of press it has gotten in the past and the hopes for the site in the future, those numbers are teeny tiny...like "mid-size project" size (not much more to it than say Emory Pointe when it comes down to it). I don't think there is a phase II. Now when you look at Atlanta, those numbers really don't make a whole lot of sense.

Let's talk office first: Yea Atlanta is still wayyyy overbuilt, and Buckhead was a poster child, and absorption across all classes and submarkets is still negative, but Class A office in Buckhead is actually now performing better than practically anywhere in the city. For Atlanta/Buckhead especially and considering the past 2 years and the next 2 years, I would probably want to put more emphasis on the office component myself, but what do I know? I do know there are major users desiring large blocks of loft office space in this city, and there is hardly any supply of that...but that does not mean anything for this project.

Multifamily: a good investor's market and a good developer's market requires good job growth, limited supply, limited construction, and ease of development. We have ease of development and that is about it. We don't have good job growth, we have no supply constraints, rents are going up and vacancies are tight right now, but let's consider the market. 375 high end apartments are going up across the street and will deliver this year. 2 new towers with market rates are delivering 650 units between them next year. Emory Pointe with a couple hundred units will deliver this year. In the advanced pipeline bucket are projects that AMLI, NAP, Jamestown, and Westbridge Partners are moving forward on. All said, excluding the mega mixed-use master-planned developments OTP, there may be slight overbuilding of market and higher rent intown apartments over the next couple years. In terms of job growth, we are not TX, Raleigh, or even S FL right now. Actually, we are the opposite and we are bleeding jobs to those areas.

At least 370 units is not a large number.

Retail: Where should I begin? Atlanta is a crappy retail market and always has been. We have strong points: Saks Fifth Avenue sales at Phipps for one. We have a lot of weak points: no high streets and poor consumer spending for a market our size. Finally we are turning a corner and stepping up to the figurative plate a little bit, and retailers see this. Some of the intown neighborhoods such as Inman Park are retaining their consumer spending capacity rather than bleeding it to Buckhead. The Westside is really really picking up, in part because of a lot of vision, and in part because retailers are making their intown Atlanta shopping debut there (it's a risk and will determine many things for the city going forward if Free People and Calypso St. Barth have strong sales at White Provision...so start shopping there!).

Ponce City Market will deliver a few hundred thousand SF of intown retail space in a unique area and a unique "big-city" Chelsea Marketesque space. We'll have to see what happens there. Lenox Square is expanding and going more and more upmarket. Phipps is incredibly dynamic and is the fortress mall of the south and will always be desirable for high street type tenants. Atlantic Station is becoming more and more synonymous with what's going on at the Westside. What had a BAD name just 2 years ago is now a cool place to be and the new leasing team there is making great strides to retain and attract top tier local and national tenants. A lot of intown money that was being spent in Buckhead just a few years ago is staying intown, and on top - more people with high incomes are moving intown. Buckhead was growing super fast last decade, but this is the decade of "even closer in" to the city. Retailers are taking note and testing the new trend out.

I believe that not only is 350,000 SF of retail huge - especially considering it is ALL small in-line shops less than 3,000 SF, some larger > 3,000 SF shops, and potentially SOME junior anchors, it is going to have a TOUGH time competing with the intown trend, the Lenox expansion, the Shops Around Lenox, Phipps, and I don't see the Village/E Andrews tenants paying $40+ rents to be in Buckhead Atlanta. That leaves me wondering who IS going to go there? It's not near MARTA. It's not "walking distance" to thousands of young professionals. It's not near the malls. There aren't millions of SF of office surrounding it. I think it's an uber challenging retail spot and that's it's biggest weak point.

For that reason, I wish the developers would be more vocal with their thoughts. I know they need to be careful about press, but I just wish we could hear a reason for their plans and how much room there is for their plans to change? Also - their timeframe.

I wish them the best; this is one of the most complicated and risky projects in the country right now.

Last edited by simms3_redux; Feb 12, 2012 at 5:03 PM.
     
     
  #4143  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2012, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simms3_redux View Post
So reading that article in the ABC about the new progress at Buckhead Atlanta, I can't help but re-evaluate what I said before.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and educated post. It always makes me happy to see people who actually know what they're talking about post on here.
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  #4144  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2012, 9:37 PM
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Simms3

Thanks for the detailed comments - it has been hard to find much about this stalled project. In general I think your comments are spot on. Nonetheless, predicting what will happen to the Atlanta economy in the next 2 years is very speculative. It will be interesting to see if the huge population redistribution that characterized the past 20 years starts again in earnest. It is all so dependent on the housing market freeing up across the whole country. In some ways it is good that the speed of growth has slowed so that we can take stock of where are before another growth burst. I give it about 4-5 years.
     
     
  #4145  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 1:22 AM
mike1986 mike1986 is offline
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Simms3:

Always appreciate your insight... however, I don't think Phipps is going to be the "fortress mall of the south" for much longer... other than Saks and Nordstrom, seems to me that it's more like a dying mall... I know for a fact that (and this is just one store) Intermix only gets on average 500 people PER WEEK at the store. There is just so little foot traffic and I can't imagine Legoland is going to help out these high end retailers. There is no reason a store like Intermix cannot thrive in Atlanta... there are no other locations in the South (other than Florida but we all know that's a different animal), we have over 5 million people now and we supposedly attract upscale shoppers from around the region. Intermix wants to stay in Atlanta to keep marketshare in the South, but Phipps is not working for them and I know this for a fact.

Simon has put so much focus on Lenox and has really fallen short with Phipps in terms of tenant mix. I would not be surprised if OM tries to steal high end tenants from Phipps... Simon has put too much at Lenox and didn't balance it out between both. Phipps would probably be in better shape if it weren't also owned by Simon... competition is a good thing, but that's just my opinion.

Also, I never understood the point of having two malls across from each other in the first place. Most people go to Lenox... nobody wants to go from one mall to the other, even if they are just across the street.

Is it not realistic to think this project will attract some or most of the high end tenants currently at Phipps?
     
     
  #4146  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 2:49 AM
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Phipps, like most other mid-size uber high end malls/uber high streets (Bal Harbour Shops, Highland Park Village, Oak St in Chicago, etc) does not rely on lots of foot traffic to achieve high tenant sales and thus high rents. It is a fortress mall and will always be one. Lenox is also a fortress mall, but functions differently and does rely more heavily on foot traffic. As I stated before, Saks at Phipps is second for sales volume in the chain (I heard this from a salesperson there so that might not be a reliable statement). I think considering that it is the premiere anchor of the mall that it speaks to the performance of Phipps. Jewelers don't need high traffic, nor do they want high traffic. Grocers need and want high traffic. Let's look more deeply at the numbers here.

Now if you want to talk about the lack of certain stores, department stores, and high end shops in Atlanta, it is not because of an issue with Phipps - it is an issue with the market. We'll never be able to compete with NYC, Chicago, Miami, Dallas, or LA in terms of taste for fashion or spending power.

Theory is closing not because Phipps does it wrong, but because Atlanta/the south could not support it. It would most certainly not have done better anywhere else in Atlanta or the south. We have a Barney's Co-Op and not a full Barney's for a reason...and it speaks to Phipps that the Co-Op is there and not somewhere else, but it speaks to the market that it is a Co-Op and not a deparment store.

Between Phipps and Lenox, Phipps has not always been a Simon mall and in fact a remaining interest was sold to SPG within the past decade. Simon has the same general leasing team in place for both, but Lenox is probably more of the moneymaker. Not "everyone" goes to Lenox. For instance I don't go to either. Buckhead Betties probably prefer Phipps over Lenox, and that is the clientele that Phipps wants. The tenants at Phipps aren't "about" diluting their brandnames with everyday prices, sales, and wide customer bases. They actually rely on a good bit of exclusivity. The Shops at Bal Harbour, the mall in Costa Mesa, Worth Ave, etc rely on a ton of exclusivity and the shoppers in those malls make the Buckhead Betties look like EBT card users.

In order for Buckhead Atlanta to steal tenants from Phipps, not only are they going to have to offer massive concessions (and many tenants at Phipps are there with years left on their leases and options to boot), BA is going to have to offer some sort of additional credit because it is taking tenants out of an environment that gives them what they need based on its name. Phipps has a very reputable name; Buckhead Atlanta does not have a name - at all, nor will it if it does not change.

Being at Phipps Plaza is not quite the same as being on Madison Ave obviously, but it is still better than saying "with a location in Lenox Square." Buckhead Atlanta is not a name. A tenant in BA is going to essentially advertise their location in "Buckhead", and people are going to assume either Lenox or Phipps depending on the tenant. That's another big problem with Buckhead Atlanta. You can't erase decades of dependability, fame, cultural significance, prestige and convenience at Lenox and Phipps...and remember Lenox and Phipps are very dynamic malls...always changing and improving. Buckhead Atlanta just can't compete...and if Atlanta is truly bringing in the retail to the core, it won't be able to compete with that trend either.
     
     
  #4147  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 5:58 AM
Kenn Kenn is offline
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Does anyone know if the streetcar construction will include burying the power and utility lines? It would be a shame if such disruption did not capitalize on the ripped up streets to rid the area of an obvious visual blight. I don't see anything on the streetcar web sites referring to cleaning up the exposed lines.
     
     
  #4148  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 2:35 PM
jnihiser jnihiser is offline
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Incredible 80's video of downtown and midtown

I just found this dashboard video of Downtown and Midtown from the 80's on the blog Return To Atlanta (http://returntoatl.blogspot.com/).

Midtown shows up 3/4 way through, but you would be hard-pressed to identify more than 5-6 buildings that are still standing today.

Midtown looks incredibly rough, and resembles the southside of downtown.

enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsmZg1hjaYU&feature=player_embedded
     
     
  #4149  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 3:43 PM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simms3_redux View Post
Multifamily: a good investor's market and a good developer's market requires good job growth, limited supply, limited construction, and ease of development. We have ease of development and that is about it. We don't have good job growth, we have no supply constraints, rents are going up and vacancies are tight right now, but let's consider the market. 375 high end apartments are going up across the street and will deliver this year. 2 new towers with market rates are delivering 650 units between them next year. Emory Pointe with a couple hundred units will deliver this year. In the advanced pipeline bucket are projects that AMLI, NAP, Jamestown, and Westbridge Partners are moving forward on. All said, excluding the mega mixed-use master-planned developments OTP, there may be slight overbuilding of market and higher rent intown apartments over the next couple years. In terms of job growth, we are not TX, Raleigh, or even S FL right now. Actually, we are the opposite and we are bleeding jobs to those areas.
I agree with your analysis about the project seeming to lack a defining vision, but on the job front there have actually been some pretty solid developments recently (that doesn't change the truth of how Atlanta's economic performance has been over the last few years: abysmal).

The latest payroll survey (link below) has us losing 600 jobs year over year (which is one of the only numbers the media actually reports), but if you look closer you can see the makeup of our economy is changing.

Change in jobs from Dec 2010:

Professional, Scientific, and Technical +15,200
Retail Trade +3,600
Manufacturing +3,600
Educational Services +2,300
Transportation, Warehousing, and Utilities +2,200
Health Care and Social Assistance +2,100
Corporate Management +800
Leisure & Hospitality -400
Federal Government -500
Internet Services -700
Telecommunications -800
Wholesale Trade -900
Other Services -1,600
Construction -2,300
State Government -3,300
Employment Services -4,100
Local Government -4,800
Finance -5,100
Real Estate -5,700


http://www.dol.state.ga.us/pdf/pr/nonag_msa.pdf

This report isn't as good as it could be, but it's hard to deny that, at long last, signs seem to be pointing in the right direction--we are finally having solid growth in high-dollar, basic employment areas. Of course, we are still being dragged down by retracting government employment as well as the sectors which were deeply involved in the bubble. I wouldn't say Atlanta is doing fine until those sectors can finally stop bleeding jobs, but at the end of the day you really need workers to fill up the Class A office towers and $1,500/mo apartments, and the jobs related to designing, constructing, and selling them will follow.

I am still very cautious about being optimistic until the January labor report is released on Thursday. Like June, January is a brutal month in our labor market--always has been--so it's really something of a wild card.


As for Buckhead Atlanta, accessibility seems like it is and will always be the weak link in that area (even if the Peachtree Streetcar gives it access to Midtown and Buckhead), which kind of precludes a number of land uses. Seems like it's not the best spot for non-niche retail. It would make a decent nightlife/entertainment area.
     
     
  #4150  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 9:18 PM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Originally Posted by jnihiser View Post
I just found this dashboard video of Downtown and Midtown from the 80's on the blog Return To Atlanta (http://returntoatl.blogspot.com/).

Midtown shows up 3/4 way through, but you would be hard-pressed to identify more than 5-6 buildings that are still standing today.

Midtown looks incredibly rough, and resembles the southside of downtown.

enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsmZg1hjaYU&feature=player_embedded
Interesting video...thanks for posting it. I remember that Midtown fondly. Even though it was kinda rough, it's the Atlanta I fell in love with - but I don't really mind the grit. Seeing the extreme lack of retail and the overabundance of parking lots in the video should make us thankful for the Midtown we have today.

As far as identifying buildings, I saw many more than 5-6 that I recognized. Most of the current low-rise residential buildings along Peachtree were either offices or vacant in that video.
     
     
  #4151  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenn View Post
Does anyone know if the streetcar construction will include burying the power and utility lines? It would be a shame if such disruption did not capitalize on the ripped up streets to rid the area of an obvious visual blight. I don't see anything on the streetcar web sites referring to cleaning up the exposed lines.
I don't believe so. For the few blocks where they are overhead (Auburn and Edgewood) there was an effort to try to bury them before the Olympics but the property owners balked. By going from an above-ground feed to a below-ground one, the property owners would have to bring all their buildings up to the current electrical codes. As such, they most be on-board with the proposal.

Thus, it's not that the "city" doesn't want to bury them, it's that the property owners aren't willing/able to pay their part.

Federal funds can't legally be used to bury utilities either.
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  #4152  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 4:40 AM
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Thought I'd share some pics I took while strolling around Midtown today... Enjoy!

Novare Building



12th & Midtown

     
     
  #4153  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 6:30 AM
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Thanks for the photo updates.
     
     
  #4154  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 6:45 PM
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Avalon moving forward

http://alpharetta.patch.com/articles/avalon#video-9110193


Alpharetta residents got their first chance to hear what North American Properties plans for Avalon, its 80-acre property at Old Milton Parkway and GA 400, and the 70-80 people at Alpharetta City Hall mostly seemed impressed with the presentation.

Avalon will have single family residential in a 13-acre section of the property, with 118 townhomes and 14 single-family detached homes. It also would have 250 multi-family residences for rent above the retail, the biggest issue they expect to have with the community, said Mark Toro of North American Properties.

There is a proposal that's well along, well advanced with an organic grocer whose initials are Whole Foods," Toro said. "They are the retailer all other retailers seek to be around."

The grocer brings the high income, affluent shopper two or three times a week to the property, he said. Even Neiman Marcus said its number one cotenant is Whole Foods.

A 16-screen, state-of-the-art digital movie theater by Regal is planned. Those who voiced concern about the current Regal Theater, which he said was built in the mid-1990s, can rest easy as Regal proposes converting that to a cinema bistro.
     
     
  #4155  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 9:43 PM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is offline
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Originally Posted by micropundit View Post
http://alpharetta.patch.com/articles/avalon#video-9110193


Alpharetta residents got their first chance to hear what North American Properties plans for Avalon, its 80-acre property at Old Milton Parkway and GA 400, and the 70-80 people at Alpharetta City Hall mostly seemed impressed with the presentation.

Avalon will have single family residential in a 13-acre section of the property, with 118 townhomes and 14 single-family detached homes. It also would have 250 multi-family residences for rent above the retail, the biggest issue they expect to have with the community, said Mark Toro of North American Properties.

There is a proposal that's well along, well advanced with an organic grocer whose initials are Whole Foods," Toro said. "They are the retailer all other retailers seek to be around."

The grocer brings the high income, affluent shopper two or three times a week to the property, he said. Even Neiman Marcus said its number one cotenant is Whole Foods.

A 16-screen, state-of-the-art digital movie theater by Regal is planned. Those who voiced concern about the current Regal Theater, which he said was built in the mid-1990s, can rest easy as Regal proposes converting that to a cinema bistro.
It sounds like a definitely improvement over major retail developments of the past. By my calculations (2 people per household x 382 households) the development will have a residential density of ~6,000 ppsm, which isn't bad for the suburbs and better than the area as a whole which is in the 2,000-4,000 range. Especially considering that normally the other project elements (office, retail, hotel) would have zero residential density.
     
     
  #4156  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 11:52 PM
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  #4157  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2012, 2:23 AM
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wtf... yeah, because of all those people traveling from macon, ga, to nachez, ms

what a waste of money
     
     
  #4158  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2012, 2:25 AM
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Zapatan Zapatan is offline
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What's going on with the Mandarin Oriental proposal? That one looks great
     
     
  #4159  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2012, 6:23 AM
joecool joecool is offline
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What's going on with the Mandarin Oriental proposal? That one looks great
I think it's canceled. Hopefully it's on hold... /=
     
     
  #4160  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2012, 1:11 PM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is offline
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wtf... yeah, because of all those people traveling from macon, ga, to nachez, ms

what a waste of money
Unfortunately, I agree. I'd really much rather give Athens and Albany one limited access highway route rather than giving all of these other cities a second (or third) one.
     
     
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