YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by PaperTiger

YVR can only play to its strengths and try and communicate those strengths to the airline community. Ultimately the Airlines invest where they think they can realize a profit.

They have terminal capacity, they have no PST on fuel for international flights. They have top notch ground services , maintenance facilities, reasonable landing fees, Trans-border pre-clearance etc. etc. They are about to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on additional improvements. They were also voted the Best airport in North America. How exactly are they supposed to “Step Up” for Pete’s sake?

With regard to the WS hub issue, the other factor (beside cost) is location. Calgary is more central to western Canada therefore functions better as a western Canadian hub. If I live in Edmonton I’m not going to be keen on a jaunt to YVR before heading to YYZ, but a stop in YYC is more palatable. Once YYC is established as a WS hub it doesn’t make sense for them to try and make YVR one as well.

Originally Posted by ACT7

Best airport in North America as voted by travellers and maybe travel agents is nice but it hardly means that that will translate into more traffic. It just means that it's a nice airport, which it is. So is YWG now - doesn't mean a thing if the building is empty half the time. By 'step up' we mean focus on its strengths for the market that it is, not just aesthetically improve the airport facilities. I would say focus on feeder traffic as much as possible to build its Asia Pacific network. It will never grow that segment based on the O&D demand that it has now. That's been proven since 2002 with the stagnant growth.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

People saying Vancouver is bigger than Calgary need to remember that if you're including YXX's catchment area (Abbotsford) into Vancouver then you have to include Edmonton when talking about Calgary.

In addition, Calgary has more head offices (more business travel).

Vancouver's traffic is primarily west. There are many Chinese nationals who live here and work in China and there is a lot of leisure travel.

If Vancouver can score a big head office or two its airport may respond in kind.

All the above statements would seem to indicate that YVR will not become a major hub until it is a bigger city with a more important, and diverse, economy. That seems to be where Vancouver should -somehow - be making a push.

[golog]

Moving up in the rankings isn't always about growing absolutely, it's also about hanging on when others slide back

The population centers of Canada and America are moving westward and have been ever since the first censuses. Economies all over the globe are on shaky footing. I think YVR's approach is doing the best with what it can, making steady progress but not relying on any more than what it already has to support such investments.

Unlike the American airports that get subsidies, it has to kickback rent and airlines have to pay for navigation services, and passengers have to pay for security costs (correct?) Furthermore the spatial distribution of major Canadian population centres and Federal government airline agreements are another key hindrance. Some of these obstacles may fall by the wayside, and YVR will get a boon for having succeeded before without that relative help its competitors had. It's actually possible for all of those relative disadvantages beyond YVR's control to change significantly in just 5 years, at which point we might talk about the undue advantage of an easier border to commute through than the American.

The one change coming to their operating environment they can predict is for longer ranged flights with newer aircraft, and new trans-arctic routes. There will be both new opportunities and new competition. I wouldn't be surprised to see increased Open Skies from the Federal government at that time, otherwise I don't know why they have paused some of their negotiations.

If YVR were to behave like you might wish them to, say by borrowing and spending a few billion to seize upon a long term geographic advantage then they would increase the probability of complete failure much quicker than they would success. They're doing the right thing by patiently making decisions on what exists today.

I don't know if anyone sees Burkeville (the mini suburb SE of the airport, leftover from WWII manufacturing) lasting on Sea Island forever, but until there is a better need for the land I wouldn't see the rush to develop the land ASAP. Dubai and China make for great forum threads, but the magic never lasts as long as the developments do.

Paris was once a cesspool and Fordlandia grew at incredible rates because it had one of the world's richest companies partnering with a completely cooperative government. Paris stuck around, Fordlandia didn't.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I don't know if there are any numbers to back this up, but YVR seems to attract a good number of locals who come to the airport just for the fun of it. At least for me, we took our kids to the airport (after a day Downtown skating at the "ice rink" at the Art Gallery) via the Canada Line. Having Subway/A&W/Burger King for dinner while watching the planes on the runway made for an entertaining couple of hours. The kids love those telescopes!

That's pretty neat, as it stands right now doing something like that at YYC just wouldn't be very affordable with parking, although I guess one could always use the bus service to the airport (but that is not as direct and accessible as the Canada line is).

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Totally agreed, esp when you consider that Brisbane's traffic equals ours, and Oslo, a city half the size or less has more pax than we do.

It's always good to compare and see if we can learn from other centres, but the comparisons are not entirely equal. Oslo obviously is the capital Norway and really not on the same league as vancouver.

Brisbane has an equivalent amount of intl traffic to vancouver. Remember, the intl traffic is counted separtely from USA-transborder. Intl traffic to YVR i assume are more longer range flights compared to brisbane

A big difference with brisbane seems to be high domestic pax, which is aided by deregulation of AUS domestic aviation, which i am not sure is comparable to canada's system. perhaps JohnnyAussie can correct me or add to this.

still though, i think larry berg is on the right track with improvements to airport effeciency. Adding the proposed pipeline from the south arm of the fraser would also be important.

[golog]

Air France to cancel 40 percent of long-haul flights

(Reuters) - Air France said on Wednesday it expected to cancel up to 40 percent of its long-haul flights and up to 30 percent of shorter flights as a pilot strike ran into its third day.

Air France has had to notify thousands of passengers of axed flights this week via email or text message.

On Tuesday, roughly one in two long and medium-haul flights were cut, but many passengers were re-routed on alternative flights, the airline said.

The SNPL pilots union says around half its members are participating in the action over plans by the conservative government to make strikers in the airline industry give two days' notice before any walkout. Currently, they are not required to give any notice.

The industrial action, which adds to travel disarray caused by freezing temperatures across Europe, was set to run until Thursday night.

French daily La Tribune, citing unnamed sources, said Air France loses roughly 15 million euros ($20 million) per day during a strike, before the cost of compensating passengers.

Transport Minister Thierry Mariani said earlier this week the government was determined to push through the legislation, which would let airlines plan minimum services during a strike rather than finding out on the day that staff have not showed up.

The legislation, adopted in the lower house of parliament in January, is to be taken up by the Senate in mid-February.

(Reporting by Catherine Bremer; Editing by Alessandra Rizzo)

YVR is suddenly closer to the top of the rankings, while this is temporary I wouldn't be surprised to see significant shaking out of airlines in the next few years.

[Valley_Refugee]

Hey guys, I follow this thread closely but don't post very often...I feel the need to chime in on two things:

1) Brisbane - Australian cities are even more isolated than Canadian ones. Brisbane is not near any other major population centre. Vancouver is a relatively easy drive to Calgary, Edmonton, Seattle, Portland, and even San Fran.

2) YVR is still Air Canada's second-largest base of operations, so it's not exactly neglected by AC. I only have 2009 stats available, but I don't think there's been a significant change in terms of ranking: http://www.anna.aero/2009/12/11/air-cana...rvices-now-represent-25-of-all-capacity/

Yes, [as trofhiren never fails to remind us ] Vancouver is not a major world city. But for a city of around 2.3-2.5 million, we punch WAY above our weight in terms of our airport. Montreal is approaching 4M and has significantly less air traffic. Denver has less connectivity to Europe and none (I believe) to Asia. Anyways, I know you know all this...but it's good to keep in mind that many American cities of our size barely have flights to even Canada or Mexico, let alone Europe, Asia, and Australia.

[ACT7]

Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee

Hey guys, I follow this thread closely but don't post very often...I feel the need to chime in on two things:

1) Brisbane - Australian cities are even more isolated than Canadian ones. Brisbane is not near any other major population centre. Vancouver is a relatively easy drive to Calgary, Edmonton, Seattle, Portland, and even San Fran.

2) YVR is still Air Canada's second-largest base of operations, so it's not exactly neglected by AC. I only have 2009 stats available, but I don't think there's been a significant change in terms of ranking: http://www.anna.aero/2009/12/11/air-cana...rvices-now-represent-25-of-all-capacity/

Yes, [as trofhiren never fails to remind us ] Vancouver is not a major world city. But for a city of around 2.3-2.5 million, we punch WAY above our weight in terms of our airport. Montreal is approaching 4M and has significantly less air traffic. Denver has less connectivity to Europe and none (I believe) to Asia. Anyways, I know you know all this...but it's good to keep in mind that many American cities of our size barely have flights to even Canada or Mexico, let alone Europe, Asia, and Australia.

A couple of things. I don't think AC neglects YVR as such, but it persistently touts YVR's potential and how it wants to be a part of that growth. I'm saying that AC had ulterior motives for saying that (i.e. EK) and is not really virtuous in its statements. Also YVR is not AC's second largest hub in terms of destinations anyway - weekly departures as of 2009 but YUL was a very close second at the time. YUL has around 75 destinations on AC and its subs. YVR handles around 50 AC destinations. On top of that, YUL has just surpassed YVR in terms of international plus transborder traffic (it has pretty much always had more international pax). YUL's shortfall is on the domestic end when compared to YVR, so while it's true that YVR handles more total passenger traffic than YUL, that is largely as a result of Canadian only traffic.

[Valley_Refugee]

Right, and I hope you don't feel I was targeting you! I was just making comments on some trends I see in the posts in general. True, AC is usually more talk than action, but I think we also have to put it in perspective...Montreal is a metro of nearly 4M people, YVR is around 2.5M, so to have each one roughly equal in weekly departures is still pretty good, I think. But I'm certainly not under the delusion that AC doesn't favour its Eastern hubs.

[ACT7]

Definitely didn't think that
I totally agree that YUL punches below it's weight in terms of airport traffic given its population. I think YVR has a lot of potential if it leverages its strengths properly. It'll be a struggle, but then again, what the hell isn't, right?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by ACT7

Definitely didn't think that
I totally agree that YUL punches below it's weight in terms of airport traffic given its population. I think YVR has a lot of potential if it leverages its strengths properly. It'll be a struggle, but then again, what the hell isn't, right?

What ARE YVR's strenghts, other than the fine terminal building?

[ACT7]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What ARE YVR's strenghts, other than the fine terminal building?

Can't think of one off the top of my head

[jlousa]

Landings fees a fraction of Toronto's

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What ARE YVR's strenghts, other than the fine terminal building?

Originally Posted by ACT7

Can't think of one off the top of my head

Come on... the infrastructure YVR has within its terminal buildings are pretty good. Don't quote me, but YVR was I believe the first airport to introduce effortless transfers between Domestic/International<->Transborder flights. And when it was introduced, there really wasn't that many transborder transfers. YUL is the only other Canadian airport does this, but they have quite a considerable amount of these passengers coming from Europe. I'm honestly surprised YYZ hasn't yet done this. And with similar experience for International<->Domestic passengers, this will really improve the experience of YVR.

Geographical location, not necessarily in a global context, but in a local context is great. And one other good thing is if there is ever a need to significantly expand, we have ample amount of room to do so.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by golog

Air France to cancel 40 percent of long-haul flights


YVR is suddenly closer to the top of the rankings, while this is temporary I wouldn't be surprised to see significant shaking out of airlines in the next few years.

? i assume that AF is cuitting flights for the short term during the job action, not permanently, or did i read this right?

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by deasine

Come on... the infrastructure YVR has within its terminal buildings are pretty good. Don't quote me, but YVR was I believe the first airport to introduce effortless transfers between Domestic/International<->Transborder flights. And when it was introduced, there really wasn't that many transborder transfers. YUL is the only other Canadian airport does this, but they have quite a considerable amount of these passengers coming from Europe. I'm honestly surprised YYZ hasn't yet done this. And with similar experience for International<->Domestic passengers, this will really improve the experience of YVR.

Yep. As I recall, YVR's international terminal was originally designed with transfer passengers in mind (think Changi or Schipol). A lot of the upgrades YVR has announced are focused not on building new gates but rather improving transit times through faster baggage belts and new secure halls for transit passengers. This will be critical in drawing more flights from major users such as Air Canada.

The other big advantage of YVR for transit passengers that hasn't been mentioned yet is not having to through TSA. Don't underestimate how important this one is. I've had too many bad -- and sometimes bizarre -- experiences with TSA when entering the US and many friends have had the same.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

The other big advantage of YVR for transit passengers that hasn't been mentioned yet is not having to through TSA. Don't underestimate how important this one is. I've had too many bad -- and sometimes bizarre -- experiences with TSA when entering the US and many friends have had the same.

Much agreed. SFO is my airport of choice when transferring in the States for that reason.

[mezzanine]

Agree about the TSA/homeland security. strong plus for YVR for a number of canadian/resident alien transfer pax.

[golog]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

? i assume that AF is cuitting flights for the short term during the job action, not permanently, or did i read this right?

Yes, the service cuts are temporary.

Air France - KLM has been promising to restructure so that it can break even for a few years now. Each year since 2009 the promised cuts have increased while virtually nothing has happened, but then they say all terminations will be voluntary with a deadline of 2013 -- after French elections this year.

Discount airlines have a strong hold on their marketshare, and the old flagbearers need to replace their fleets while being squeezed on all sides by oil prices, pensions, corporate travel reduction, competition from expanded highspeed rail, losses from strikes and volcanoes...

So Air France - KLM, among others, have some big cuts coming but I misread and posted before I thought it through. Since I couldn't delete the post, I figured I might as well leave it because the service reductions are certainly notable.

----
I think Europe is more strict / job-protectionist, but a lot of aircraft maintenance is being outsourced to the lowest cost country, even if the workers don't speak english which the manuals are written in. (expect a few accidents before regulators bother to teach a CEO a lesson)

Still, their competitors are doing it which makes it even tougher to break even. That's a big reason for the push to try and force foreign carriers to buy bogus carbon credits from european banks.

[deasine]

AF-KLM are the two carriers with the highest CASK per passenger. It's really going to be hard to compete with LH and its family, along with IAG without major cutbacks and major restructuring.

One thing I've yet to see is airlines cut their ground-crew services. Actually, I was really amazed in SQ's only SIN hub, they don't use their own staff to handle ground operations. Their operations are carried out by SATS Singapore. And SQ is still able to maintain its service standard even on the ground (well I guess the culture of people has something to do with it as well).

I'm sure they'll run into so many hurdles, but I mean contracting ground crew services out can save quite a bit of money without really affecting the integrity and service of the airline.

And other news... WS once again makes headlines:

News Releases
WestJetters vote 91 per cent in favour of regional airline

Airline moves to aircraft selection as next step

CALGARY, Feb. 8, 2012 /CNW/ - WestJet today announced its employees have voted overwhelmingly - 91 per cent - in favour of the launch of a regional airline as a wholly owned subsidiary of WestJet.

"The opportunity presented to WestJetters has been very well received and I thank them for their input and consideration in this important matter," said Gregg Saretsky, WestJet President and CEO. "Clearly, WestJetters have recognized and embraced that the service we have provided for 16 years is in demand in even more communities across Canada. Bringing WestJet to these communities will benefit Canadians while providing increased shareholder value. We now look forward to planning the launch of this new airline as early as 2013."

"There are not many organizations that would put such a strategic decision in front of the employees for their input and approval," commented Antonio Faiola, WestJet Flight Attendant, Board Member and Chair of PACT, WestJet's employee association. "I am proud to work for a company that puts such tremendous importance on culture and the relationship with WestJetters."

With approval from the Board of Directors to proceed with implementation of a low-cost regional airline, WestJet will move to the next stage of planning by sending requests for proposals to two aircraft manufacturers: Bombardier for the Q400 NextGen and ATR for the ATR 72-600.

Caution regarding forward-looking statements
Certain information set forth in this news release, including information regarding the launch of a short-haul regional airline including timing for launching the airline and fleet type, our process for planning the launch of a short-haul regional airline, the goals relating to implementation of a short-haul regional airline and profitability thereof, the benefits to certain stakeholders from implementing a short-haul regional airline, and our strategy, contain forward-looking statements. By their nature, forward-looking statements are subject to numerous risks and uncertainties, some of which are beyond WestJet's control. These forward-looking statements are based on our current strategic plan, our analysis of the requirements for a short-haul regional airline including fleet type and size and network design, our experience in creating and growing a low-cost domestic airline, and currently available implementation plans, but may vary due to factors including, but not limited to, general economic conditions, the competitive environment for a short-haul regional airline, information obtained through stakeholder consultations, regulatory requirements, aircraft manufacturer information including aircraft supply proposals, and other factors and risks described in WestJet's public reports and filings. WestJet's public reports and filings are available on WestJet's profile at www.sedar.com. Readers are cautioned that undue reliance should not be placed on forward-looking statements as actual results may vary materially from the forward-looking statements. WestJet does not undertake to update, correct or revise any forward-looking statements as a result of any new information, future events or otherwise, except as may be required by applicable law.

About WestJet
WestJet is Canada's favourite airline, offering scheduled service throughout its 76-city North American and Caribbean network. Inducted into Canada's Most Admired Corporate Cultures Hall of Fame and named one of Canada's best employers, WestJet pioneered low-cost flying in Canada. WestJet offers increased legroom and leather seats on its modern fleet of 97 Boeing Next-Generation 737 aircraft. With future confirmed deliveries for an additional 38 aircraft through 2018, WestJet strives to be one of the five most successful international airlines in the world.

Connect with WestJet on Facebook at www.facebook.com/westjet
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For further information:

Media contact
Robert Palmer, Media Relations
Telephone: 1-888-WJ 4 NEWS (1-888-954-6397)
Email: [email protected].

(via WestJet).

[Metro-One]

Too bad all the airlines based out of Vancouver failed...sigh....