The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nick.]

Originally Posted by armorand93

http://www.busdrawings.com/Transit/manitoba/winnipeg/d40/1987d40/wt632.jpg - Photo by Peter McLaughlin of http://www.busdrawings.com, site of various transit pictures.



For you guys since this in an CANADIAN, not an TORONTO thread...

hmm, check your facts. toronto is in canada.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

The Shepperd Subway is the only nutty expansion right now. Toronto needs more north south connections not more east west that dump onto the already maxed out Yonge/Wilson line. LRT is a perfect solution for Suburban Toronto. Sure a subway would be nice but who is going to pay for it. People like you and the supporters of Ford don't seem to want to pay in taxes for it.

So are we just going to abandon Scarberia and let it rot? An East-West rapid transit connection would completely revitalize the dog's breakfast that is Eglinton Avenue East. And the Yonge Line isn't "maxed out" at the moment, since capacity improvements are constantly being made, although I agree a downtown relief line is needed at some point. Someone other than the TTC should handle construction, because $1.5 billion for less than 2 kilometres is outrageous.

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Torontonians pay the lowest taxes in Ontario. That argument is flawed... LOL, still rolling my eyes at your over-taxation comment. Straight out of the Ford handbook or the Toronto Sun, whichever source you use for your facts.

Torontonians pay one of the lowest tax rates, but not necessarily the lowest amounts. There was a report issued by the City of Edmonton in 2010 that showed Torontonians pay the highest average property taxes in the country, to the tune of $4,281 (second place: Montreal at $3,740). They also had the highest median property taxes per house and one of the highest (4th I believe) tax-per-capita figures.

Low rates mean nothing if the value of the property being taxed is double what it is everywhere else. And "lowest rates in Ontario" is nothing to harp about either, because Ontario cities have some of the highest rates in the country. Something tells me you don't pay property tax if you haven't noticed this.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/documents/PropertyTax_Final_2010_Final_Report.pdf

[1331Massi]

Okay, I'm bored, so let's stop this Ford-is-a-dumb-ass/Ford-is-a-genius debate and lets talk about how stupid Tremblay is and why Vaillencourt is the greatest thing that could have ever happened to Laval.

As earlier mentioned by several people, subway spurs development. That's why Laval's mayor decided to go ahead with an "ambitious" plan (I mean the Quebec definition of ambitious) plan to add 5 new stations to the metro to close the orange line loop. In 2010, he introduced the Évolucité plan and decided Laval needed new 5 stations, on top of 3 others to be built in Montreal. This will probably be reduced to four since (also previously mentioned) Mr. Vaillencourt wants to build an aerial tram to Carrefour Laval, so the line can have a proper loop. This is what he was proposing:



Naturally, Montreal and Longueuil have to complain. But these 8 new stations could serve a total of about 300,000 people. The others are complaining that the metro SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SPUR DEVELLOPMENT!!! WTF??? This time, they have really outdone themselves! I can just imagine what Tremblay is thinking: My Metro, it's mine! No we will not share it with you! Anyways, click Évolucité to see what the plans are.

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by Wharn

So are we just going to abandon Scarberia and let it rot? An East-West rapid transit connection would completely revitalize the dog's breakfast that is Eglinton Avenue East. And the Yonge Line isn't "maxed out" at the moment, since capacity improvements are constantly being made, although I agree a downtown relief line is needed at some point. Someone other than the TTC should handle construction, because $1.5 billion for less than 2 kilometres is outrageous.

Under Fords plan that's what's going to happen. And don't even get me started how people along Finch in the westend are going to be getting less transit then ever before.

Transit City map vs the Ford map, and keep in mind Transit City is fully funded, Ford expects the private sector to pick up the tab for his plan.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by Nick.

hmm, check your facts. toronto is in canada.

No shit, sherlock. It's just that this thread revolves more around Toronto than the rest of Canada, just saying.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by 1331Massi

http://www.evolucite.laval.ca/images/station_metro_carte.jpg

Naturally, Montreal and Longueuil have to complain. But these 8 new stations could serve a total of about 300,000 people. The others are complaining that the metro SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SPUR DEVELLOPMENT!!! WTF??? This time, they have really outdone themselves! I can just imagine what Tremblay is thinking: My Metro, it's mine! No we will not share it with you! Anyways, click Évolucité to see what the plans are.

This plan is even more absurd than the Sheppard Line & Spadina extension in Toronto.

There are much more densely populated parts of the Island (y'know, areas that are already developed) that have no metro service...so until those areas with an instant ridership base are served, it doesn't make sense to expand it to low-density suburban areas that will see greater development in "the future". It takes many years for that development to materialize.

Originally Posted by armorand93

No shit, sherlock. It's just that this thread revolves more around Toronto than the rest of Canada, just saying.

People from the rest of the country are more than welcome to post here too and share news and development from their own city!

[GORDBO]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

evergreen line is in pre-construction phase now, full on construction starts in a couple months - will be up and running by 2016

• Video Link

It's great to this project finally get underway!

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Under Fords plan that's what's going to happen. And don't even get me started how people along Finch in the westend are going to be getting less transit then ever before.

Transit City map vs the Ford map, and keep in mind Transit City is fully funded, Ford expects the private sector to pick up the tab for his plan.

First of all, that picture is somewhat misleading because it doesn't show the underground Eglinton section, which (hopefully) is still being built. Secondly, you're the one who said that we couldn't have any more east-west extensions, not Rob Ford. If anything the new plan is Scarberia-centric, as it clearly places emphasis on building subways in an extremely geographically disadvantaged section of the city. Thirdly, a lot of the "rapid" transit lines in the original plan were just glorified surface routes.

Originally Posted by 1331Massi

The others are complaining that the metro SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SPUR DEVELLOPMENT!!! WTF??? This time, they have really outdone themselves! I can just imagine what Tremblay is thinking: My Metro, it's mine! No we will not share it with you! Anyways, click Évolucité to see what the plans are.

Montreal and Toronto have more in common than I thought. This is basically the argument of the anti-subway crowd. A lot of folks talk about how these plans are absurd or stupid or uneconomical, but if that same attitude prevailed in the 1940s, Toronto would be a lot like Ottawa: no subways at all, because it couldn't be "justified" for what was, at the time, a fairly small city. Redevelopment only comes when you don't have shitty transportation. Just ask London and the non-existent industries along our non-existent Ring Road.

[bkd]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

People from the rest of the country are more than welcome to post here too and share news and development from their own city!

And have it ignored.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by bkd

And have it ignored.

Exactly. And I dont want to spam to get my point either because I might get banned...

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Montreal and Toronto have more in common than I thought. This is basically the argument of the anti-subway crowd. A lot of folks talk about how these plans are absurd or stupid or uneconomical, but if that same attitude prevailed in the 1940s, Toronto would be a lot like Ottawa: no subways at all, because it couldn't be "justified" for what was, at the time, a fairly small city. Redevelopment only comes when you don't have shitty transportation. Just ask London and the non-existent industries along our non-existent Ring Road.

The original Yonge Line planned Queen Line (later replaced with Bloor) were built to replace streetcar lines through the busy, densely populated centre of the city (which was not "at the time, fairly small" - 1 million inhabitants was fairly large in 1950) that was past capacity. That is an instant ridership base in a context that calls for a subway.

No one is saying that new subways shouldn't be built in Toronto or Montreal. What we're saying is that they shouldn't be built in Vaughn and Laval.

[mbeaumont]

Originally Posted by 1331Massi

Okay, I'm bored, so let's stop this Ford-is-a-dumb-ass/Ford-is-a-genius debate and lets talk about how stupid Tremblay is and why Vaillencourt is the greatest thing that could have ever happened to Laval.

As earlier mentioned by several people, subway spurs development. That's why Laval's mayor decided to go ahead with an "ambitious" plan (I mean the Quebec definition of ambitious) plan to add 5 new stations to the metro to close the orange line loop. In 2010, he introduced the Évolucité plan and decided Laval needed new 5 stations, on top of 3 others to be built in Montreal. This will probably be reduced to four since (also previously mentioned) Mr. Vaillencourt wants to build an aerial tram to Carrefour Laval, so the line can have a proper loop. This is what he was proposing:



Naturally, Montreal and Longueuil have to complain. But these 8 new stations could serve a total of about 300,000 people. The others are complaining that the metro SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SPUR DEVELLOPMENT!!! WTF??? This time, they have really outdone themselves! I can just imagine what Tremblay is thinking: My Metro, it's mine! No we will not share it with you! Anyways, click Évolucité to see what the plans are.

I'm one of those people opposed to the Laval extension, why should we build a Metro to Laval, when they just got 3 stations to boost development, when theres denser areas in Montreal that still are waiting on theirs. Blue line extension to the east, its been study after study but still no action. Heck I'd even support extending the yellow line further into Longeuil over Laval, at least the Viexu Longeuil area has higher densities than Laval.

[Rico Rommheim]

I'm opposed to further Laval metro developments as well. At least, I'm opposed to building underground subway. Laval should really consider building a Burnaby-style skytrain system which directly connects with the existing Montreal metro. Burnaby, a city with half of Laval's population has a really good skytrain coverage.

There is simply no need to build the expensive and laborious Montreal-style subway in low-density strip mall and bungalow neighbourhoods.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

I'm opposed to further Laval metro developments as well. At least, I'm opposed to building underground subway. Laval should really consider building a Burnaby-style skytrain system which directly connects with the existing Montreal metro. Burnaby, a city with half of Laval's population has a really good skytrain coverage.

Remember that Burnaby is much closer to the core in both relative and absolute terms than Laval is. LRT & BRT would be more than sufficient for it at this time.

[MTLskyline]

I'm also opposed to further expansions in Laval, at least not until some other deserving areas get expansions first including Vieux-Longueuil which has double the population density of Laval.

These are Montreal's public transit priorities, IMO

1. Train connection between the airport and Central Station
2. Blue line east to Anjou/St. Leonard/Montreal North
3. Light rail to Griffintown/Nuns' Island and Brossard (which is also more densely populated than Laval)
4. Yellow line north to Parc/Pine intersection east of McGill's campus
5. Pie-IX light rail
6. Blue line west to NDG (Loyola campus of Concordia)
7. Yellow line southeast to downtown Longueuil and CEGEP Edouard-Montpetit (Going further than the CEGEP is completely unnecessary)
8. Western segment of orange line north to Bois-Franc
9. Green line west to LaSalle/Lachine border
10. Further orange line extension in Laval

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The original Yonge Line planned Queen Line (later replaced with Bloor) were built to replace streetcar lines through the busy, densely populated centre of the city (which was not "at the time, fairly small" - 1 million inhabitants was fairly large in 1950) that was past capacity. That is an instant ridership base in a context that calls for a subway.

In 1951 (5 years after construction started), the metro area was a little over 1 million. The City proper was only about 670,000. I don't see much of a difference in the congestion that "plagued" Yonge Street in 1946 versus the congestion that plagues Sheppard Avenue today.

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

No one is saying that new subways shouldn't be built in Toronto or Montreal. What we're saying is that they shouldn't be built in Vaughn and Laval.

I do question the utility of a Vaughan extension, but I'm certain it will pay off in the long run. We're trying to get suburbanites out of their cars, and there are 2 ways to do that: commuter trains and subways. We can't just magically expect the cars to go away. As for extensions in that area, Bringing the Spadina line up to Steeles Avenue is a no-brainer, and extending the Sheppard line across to meet it would permanently solve York University's transit isolation issues.

Originally Posted by bkd

And have it ignored.

Coming from a Londoner... nobody cares. We can air our complaints all we want but compared to the enticing story of The Big Bad Ford and the Three Little Transit Lines (or Little Red Tremblay), they don't stand a chance of being noticed.

[losername]

But the subway extension to North York and eventually Vaughn won't get people out of their cars as these suburban subway stations are being built with huge parking lots surrounding them right next to highways. These areas should be served by commuter rail not subways.

[losername]

^^^^Correction it may get them out of their cars for part of their trips but they will still drive to the subway station.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by dleung

How is the Spadina extension not the most ill-conceived misappropriation of scarce transit funds in the history of the universe? $3 billion, for a ridership of 80,000... that's even worse than the $1 billion Sheppard line that serves 47,000.

Exactly! Hit the nail on the coffin!

And I get called an evil Sun reader because I'm simply addressing the facts! Did I not criticize Ford's policies in my last post? Some people need to develop their reading comprehension. Pathetic.

Btw the only news source I would quote (off the top of my head) is Russian Television or in some cases the Globe and Mail. Sun TV is just as much neocon propoganda as the star is neoliberal propoganda.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Under Fords plan that's what's going to happen. And don't even get me started how people along Finch in the westend are going to be getting less transit then ever before.

Transit City map vs the Ford map, and keep in mind Transit City is fully funded, Ford expects the private sector to pick up the tab for his plan.

As for the Eglinton Line, it doesn't need to be a subway and it doesn't need to be underground for the length that Fraud wants it.

Nimbys will be Nimbys but it doesn't make them right. Finch needs an LRT, Eglinton needs to be extended to the airport, and the Sheppard Extension is a joke.