DENVER | Transportation Thread

[EngiNerd]

For commuting to the DTC, I think its actually less of the free and easy parking as it is the horrible location of the stations with regards to actually getting to your place of business in the DTC. That coupled with the fact that there is little to no bus service from the stations around the DTC (at least none with any frequency that would service the area, something like the Skip or Hop in Boulder), means that it's incredibly inconvenient to use the LRT to commute to the DTC unless your business just happens to be close-by to the light rail, which is probably what those 15% represent.

Also, the DTC area is very much not pedestrian friendly, with wide roads that you have to Frogger across many time to actually get where you want to go if you try and walk anywhere.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

For commuting to the DTC, I think its actually less of the free and easy parking as it is the horrible location of the stations with regards to actually getting to your place of business in the DTC. That coupled with the fact that there is little to no bus service from the stations around the DTC (at least none with any frequency that would service the area, something like the Skip or Hop in Boulder), means that it's incredibly inconvenient to use the LRT to commute to the DTC unless your business just happens to be close-by to the light rail, which is probably what those 15% represent.

Also, the DTC area is very much not pedestrian friendly, with wide roads that you have to Frogger across many time to actually get where you want to go if you try and walk anywhere.

I occasionally have meetings down in the DTC and although I take LRT to avoid the rush hour commute I still find myself cutting through parking lots, walking across grass medians, looking for gaps in traffic to cross streets, walking on streets with no sidewalks, etc.

So I agree the DTC needs to be more pedestrian friendly. They mandate setbacks so why not mandate access through those setbacks to make it more direct for pedestrians and/or cyclists? How expensive could it be to install a few of those flashy light crosswalks that they use in Boulder?

They also need a cycling plan and I believe they would greatly benefit from a bike share LRT combo once the plan is implemented. But when it comes to all municipalities in the DTC agreeing on that it may be a pipe dream.

As far as a shuttles go they tried that once but I believe it was before LRT was running and I think they where going to attempt it again afterwards but RTD said it didn't make sense for them to do it and the funds disappeared from the other entity (SETA?).

[bunt_q]

I remember that. Shuttle are generally a bad solution. Better not to need them in the first place. If bike-sharing takes hold in the mainstream adult commuting population, there could be a lot of potential in the DTC to solve the last mile problem (in DTC's case, the last mile, plus the 1/4 width of highway to cross ).

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

For commuting to the DTC, I think its actually less of the free and easy parking as it is the horrible location of the stations with regards to actually getting to your place of business in the DTC. That coupled with the fact that there is little to no bus service from the stations around the DTC (at least none with any frequency that would service the area, something like the Skip or Hop in Boulder), means that it's incredibly inconvenient to use the LRT to commute to the DTC unless your business just happens to be close-by to the light rail, which is probably what those 15% represent. Also, the DTC area is very much not pedestrian friendly, with wide roads that you have to Frogger across many time to actually get where you want to go if you try and walk anywhere.

It's all those things at the same time. No one change would fix DTC. It would take a comprehensive set of long term solutions.

But man, we missed an opportunity with the light rail.

[pablosan]

^

I agree on that front.

[bunt_q]

And we're missing many more opportunities as we go. Alas, we just don't have the money to toss around that we used to. Expediency wins out these days.

[glowrock]

And at the same time, some of the DTC stations are bound to become very large TODs, so all is most definitely not lost. Especially Belleview and Arapahoe stations. And with the bridges over the freeway, access is pretty decent for the most part. Could it have been better? Of course. But is it still a solid core with which to improve it? Absolutely.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Cirrus]

I've tried to type this response three times now, but I'm on a netbook running IE, and I keep hitting "backspace" to edit a typo, which has the ridiculous effect of sending me back a page in the browser. Death on whatever programmer decided that was a good idea for a keyboard shortcut!

Anyway, to try *again*, I don't think the TODs mean we have a "solid core." I think they are making the best of a suboptimal situation. They'll be a drop in the bucket, unfortunately.

I suppose it's good news that these missed opportunities feel like mistakes. It means we're making progress. It means "anything" is starting to not be good enough.

[bunt_q]

The segment between Arapahoe and Belleview is the real disappointment. A couple of bridges between those two would've done wonders. That, and putting the Southnoor station at Hampden. So basically, we were $100m short for doing that line "right". Oh, and the ped bridge at Colorado. Yes, it's getting done now. But in the interim we lost the property to do the bridge we wanted, and now it'll be much less useful.

(I suppose Dry Creek could've been better too; better accommodated future development. But that's really less critical. County Line was always going to be hopeless, and Lincoln is okay for peds, less do for the park n ride, actually.)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I suppose it's good news that these missed opportunities feel like mistakes. It means we're making progress. It means "anything" is starting to not be good enough.

It would have been nice if that realization had hit before Fastracks was all planned out.

Sorry double posts. I'm on the iPhone. Apparently much more convenient than Cirrus' netbook, but still not ideal! I would say we need a forum app, but I have the skycrapercity app, and it's total garbage.

[CPVLIVE]

I saw one of the new mall busses on 16th street today. Looked great, although not as long as I had imagined after seeing the picture posted here last year.

[The Dirt]

I snagged this from the DaVita cam:

http://oxblue.com/pro/open/saundersci/davita @ 3:43pm on 1/25/12

It looks like it's about the same length as the current buses. Was it supposed to be longer?

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

It would have been nice if that realization had hit before Fastracks was all planned out.

Sorry double posts. I'm on the iPhone. Apparently much more convenient than Cirrus' netbook, but still not ideal! I would say we need a forum app, but I have the skycrapercity app, and it's total garbage.

The problem, IMO after living with the Southeast Line and trying not to use it due to noise at stations etc., is very fundamental, and, has to do with engineering. Granted this is after the fact.....

Ever notice the extremely expensive, curving, and, high grade overpasses the line makes over major east west streets? Each of these structures was extremely expensive to build, but was built due to CDOT demands, I suspect.Likewise, for whatever series of political decisions, the stations were forced to put parking structures, etc., on the east, or opposite side of the freeway (while the 'Tech Center' wanted the light rail, their powers at be did not want the light rail on their side. Besides, the cost of going under the I-225 I-25 intersection would have been a bit more than the light rail monstrosity built at I-225 and I 25.)The overpasses greatly added to total cost (yes they are curvy so that on and off ramps could be built under them....) The access on the opposite side of the freeway made for 'short walks', which do much to stimulate use (sarcasm intended.)

The line should have been put down the center of I-25, with the south bound lanes moved a bit west to absorb the ROW (this is from Evans south). Either super-elevate the stations (using the money we spent on the huge light rail overpasses over Belleview, etc), or box them in, to eliminate street noise.

The line would have been far faster, been less damaging to wheel flanges on the light rail cars, extended the life of rails, been quieter at stations (some of them south of Colorado are so loud due to motor vehicle traffic that my ears literally hurt when I am standing on a platform waiting for a train), and, I,suspect, cheaper.

The issue, at least from CDOT, likely was related to construction problems associated with moving traffic lanes, etc., as well as reinforcing existing bridges. I suspect, however, that more had to do with Turf issues between CDOT and RTD than any logical reason (CDOT is the bigger kahuna.)

The same issue applies, IMO, to the Taj line west of Union/Simms and 6th, where the line should have either ran on the north side of 6th, or down the median with a tunnel under Colfax/6th Ave.

I have little doubt that many minor parties to the design of the TRex project voiced these criticisms. The problems, IMO, resulted from powerful parties who knew very little about mass transit (power being more arrogance than logic driven) and, a lot about rubber tires running on concrete.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by glowrock

And at the same time, some of the DTC stations are bound to become very large TODs, so all is most definitely not lost. Especially Belleview and Arapahoe stations. And with the bridges over the freeway, access is pretty decent for the most part. Could it have been better? Of course. But is it still a solid core with which to improve it? Absolutely.

Aaron (Glowrock)

The only way to salvage the South East line south of Yale (not including the I 225 spur which services Parker, a very busy endpoint) is to admit the line is a failure,commit money and political capital to opening access from the West to the Stations, and putting up functional sound barriers on the East side of the stations to reduce the ear shattering decibels that render the stations even less tolerable. Opening the stations to the west would involve dealing with powerful NIMBYs but, I strongly believe that continuing economic decline will force access from the West due to increased demand. Sound barriers would go far to help the stations a place to wait for trains, and the engineering technology for such barriers is off the shelf. Besides, these two factors would complement one another, as security could be improved by opening the stations to the west where police response, if required, could be far more rapid than now.

The key, IMO, is to increase the number of locations the line stations could easily access, as the ROW has been cast in steel and concrete.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

The only way to salvage the South East line south of Yale (not including the I 225 spur which services Parker, a very busy endpoint) is to admit the line is a failure,commit money and political capital to opening access from the West to the Stations, and putting up functional sound barriers on the East side of the stations to reduce the ear shattering decibels that render the stations even less tolerable. Opening the stations to the west would involve dealing with powerful NIMBYs but, I strongly believe that continuing economic decline will force access from the West due to increased demand. Sound barriers would go far to help the stations a place to wait for trains, and the engineering technology for such barriers is off the shelf. Besides, these two factors would complement one another, as security could be improved by opening the stations to the west where police response, if required, could be far more rapid than now.

The key, IMO, is to increase the number of locations the line stations could easily access, as the ROW has been cast in steel and concrete.

Wizened, do you always feel the need to force us all to wallow in your personal negativity of the world? Seriously, all you talk about is a continued economic disaster, the downfall of society in general, the dilapidation of our infrastructure, ending up with damn near anarchy. Man, you need some happiness in your life!

So far as your comments are concerned... I definitely agree with you and others that a pedestrian bridge needs to be built at the Belleview station, just like Arapahoe, Dry Creek, County Line, etc... Probably need one at Orchard as well (it's been a few years since I've been over there, is there one already at Orchard?)

At the same time, I don't agree that the SE Corridor is some sort of complete disaster, like you seem to imply. While I do agree it probably should have run along a somewhat different ROW (I'm thinking maybe along DTC Blvd.?) to hit more of the Tech Center, it's still pretty easy to get to many locations from the current stations. Belleview probably should have been better placed, that much is true. At the same time, there will eventually be a large TOD over there, so not all is lost.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bobg]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Wizened, do you always feel the need to force us all to wallow in your personal negativity of the world? Seriously, all you talk about is a continued economic disaster, the downfall of society in general, the dilapidation of our infrastructure, ending up with damn near anarchy. Man, you need some happiness in your life!

So far as your comments are concerned... I definitely agree with you and others that a pedestrian bridge needs to be built at the Belleview station, just like Arapahoe, Dry Creek, County Line, etc... Probably need one at Orchard as well (it's been a few years since I've been over there, is there one already at Orchard?)

At the same time, I don't agree that the SE Corridor is some sort of complete disaster, like you seem to imply. While I do agree it probably should have run along a somewhat different ROW (I'm thinking maybe along DTC Blvd.?) to hit more of the Tech Center, it's still pretty easy to get to many locations from the current stations. Belleview probably should have been better placed, that much is true. At the same time, there will eventually be a large TOD over there, so not all is lost.

Aaron (Glowrock)

They added the bridge at orchard station a year or two after completion of the line.

RTD kind of treats Union Ave as the pedestrian bridge for Belleview station. It already has elevator and stairs on the north side of Union Ave bridge accessible from the station. They are using Fastracks money to build a second elevator and stairs on the south side for better bus transfers. I kind of thought that second elevator is a waste and misallocation because using the sidewalk to the base of the bridge is not a long walk at all and they are using Fastracks money to build it. I think Union Ave as the bridge is good enough it's immediately north of the station and it's only really out of the way if you are going to the Marriott directly across the freeway which is not a long walk.

[The Dirt]

It seems that a stop south of Belleview by those newish residential towers would be well utilized. Tons of residential, business, and restaurants right there and across the highway. How much would it cost to throw in a station right there? It seems that there is an open parcel and a large parking garage there already.

[bunt_q]

I bet the argument RTD would make is that they are primarily a commuter line, park-n-ride focused, and the extra minute or minute and a half that that station would cost every train isn't justified by the small increase in ridership you'd get. And they're not entirely wrong.

On the cost, you'd have to take that vacant parcel, and maybe another one or two, to accommodate the wider station ROW. It wouldn't be cheap.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I bet the argument RTD would make is that they are primarily a commuter line, park-n-ride focused, and the extra minute or minute and a half that that station would cost every train isn't justified by the small increase in ridership you'd get. And they're not entirely wrong.

That extra stop isn't worth worth the time right away, but after 30 or 40 years of land use changes focused around the station then it sure would be.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Wizened, do you always feel the need to force us all to wallow in your personal negativity of the world? Seriously, all you talk about is a continued economic disaster, the downfall of society in general, the dilapidation of our infrastructure, ending up with damn near anarchy. Man, you need some happiness in your life!

So far as your comments are concerned... I definitely agree with you and others that a pedestrian bridge needs to be built at the Belleview station, just like Arapahoe, Dry Creek, County Line, etc... Probably need one at Orchard as well (it's been a few years since I've been over there, is there one already at Orchard?)

At the same time, I don't agree that the SE Corridor is some sort of complete disaster, like you seem to imply. While I do agree it probably should have run along a somewhat different ROW (I'm thinking maybe along DTC Blvd.?) to hit more of the Tech Center, it's still pretty easy to get to many locations from the current stations. Belleview probably should have been better placed, that much is true. At the same time, there will eventually be a large TOD over there, so not all is lost.

Aaron (Glowrock)

I try to tell the truth as I see it.

I have been fortunate enough to see Western Europe, and, Japan, not as tourist, but as someone who lived there.

I have a fairly good idea about what good design in transportation is, etc.

I also believe that too much 'real politik' often is nothing more than horse manure, and, is a cover up for a lot of ignorance and incompetence on the part of politicians, and, developers (the vast majority of US developers, right now, certainly are not alturistic.)

I am an optimist at heart, but, because I have ridden the Tokyo rail system maybe 500 times as a kid, and, because I took the train to school there as a boy, I know a) what a good train station is; b) what convenience to public transportation means and how public transportation can hook stations into a kind of gigantic shopping mall/work place/entertainment/and residential system; c) and what speed of travel and frequency actually mean.

This type of planning was done by the Japanese in the 1930s! The Engish- not as professionally- in the 1950s, and, the Chinese in the 2000s. This stuff is out there, public, and, literally hundreds of millions of people use great steel rail transportation, live close to stations, take trains to work, shopping etc.

This is NOT rocket science, but, OLD NEWS sir. It is all known.

How else can I reacte to people with power whose products are poorly designed, corruptly zoned, over priced, and, poorly built?

But deep down, I JUST WANT US TO GET STARTED AND DO GREAT DESIGN. Jeez we put a man on the moon!