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  #4341  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2012, 9:19 PM
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I would imagine that there will be a lot of public concern about the cost of annexing properties along the Centre Street route. That being said, it makes the most logical sense.
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  #4342  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2012, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Innersoul1 View Post
I would imagine that there will be a lot of public concern about the cost of annexing properties along the Centre Street route. That being said, it makes the most logical sense.
It makes the most logical sense up to a certain cost. Not sure what that is, but if I told you it would cost $100 Billion to build it up Centre Street, would it be the most logical choice? What about $50 billion? $20?... At some point, the cost becomes too much and it is no longer logical. Not saying it will happen, but it might be.

I don't think they should immediately discount the Nose Creek Alignment, until all routes have been fully analyzed, including all costs and impacts. That is how you determine what makes the most logical sense.
     
     
  #4343  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
^ Nice quotes.

I guess there's an assumption that you must maintain the same number of vehicle lanes on centre street if it were to run at grade. Perhaps this becomes primarily a transit street and automobile capacities are reduced?

Thoughts?
i'm not sure reducing the number of lanes on centre street would be wise, regardless of it's transit usage. it serves as such a vital north/south link in the northern part of the city. perhaps a lane reduction solution would work best on edmonton trail where it probably serves less vehicle traffic.
     
     
  #4344  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2012, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
^ Nice quotes.

I guess there's an assumption that you must maintain the same number of vehicle lanes on centre street if it were to run at grade. Perhaps this becomes primarily a transit street and automobile capacities are reduced?

Thoughts?
I personally would love to see it trenched, and then centre street rebuilt on top. I have no idea if this is even feasible (I'm not sure if any part of the road could be open while under construction) but I would hate to see the tracks take up prime real-estate on one side of the road, nor do I really like it down the middle. I am not really a fan of above-grade tracks.

Still, I think Centre street, and as an extension of the SELRT, would be my preferred option.
     
     
  #4345  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2012, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
^ Nice quotes.

I guess there's an assumption that you must maintain the same number of vehicle lanes on centre street if it were to run at grade. Perhaps this becomes primarily a transit street and automobile capacities are reduced?

Thoughts?
I think that removing traffic lanes from Centre Street is a total non-starter. The capacity difference between four traffic lanes and two traffic lanes with two LRT lanes seems immense. I just don't think that the area could function very well without an arterial road there. It would also mean a compromised rail line without the speed or capacity of an exclusive ROW.

The notion of expropriating properties along one side of Centre Street to allow for four traffic lanes and two LRT lanes is also problematic. It seems like an expensive way to turn Centre Street into 36 Street NE. That is, again, a good way to compromise traffic and transit capacity while also doing harm to the pedestrian environment.

I really think we should be looking to essentially replicate the Canada Line, except with longer stations, when we build the North Central LRT. The comparison is surprisingly apt. In both cases the line would start in the respective city's downtown, cross under a body of water (False Creek and the Bow River), then continue underground roughly eight kilometres (to Marine Drive and Beddington Trail) before emerging for an elevated or surface ROW. I would consider an airport spur to be extraneous for Calgary and would redirect that cost, along with the cost of elevating the final route, towards longer stations but it would be open to debate. This city and province ought to be able to afford what was built in Vancouver.
     
     
  #4346  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2012, 5:16 AM
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I'd like to see the analysis that shows that the Nose Creek alignment isn't the best one; not because I think it is the best, but just to show that there is analysis beyond "put it where the people are", since up to this point the analysis was simply "put it where it's cheap".

I think that running LRT sharing right-of-way with cars would be hard to justify; lots of potential delay to the LRT and lots of impact to the other traffic. I don't think the corridors can support losing two lanes for transit, much as I love transit, and taking property is a non-starter; it's both expensive and would remove the density that's already started to develop on the corridor.

That leaves an aerial structure, or a tunnel. An aerial structure would have a much greater impact on the community, and on the other transportation uses of the corridor. (Centre St having a lane reversal would make median support poles dangerous, so the vertical supports would presumably have to go in the sidewalk.) The grade from McHugh Bluff to downtown would be difficult to do. A tunnel could potentially transition to an elevated structure in the central part of the project, somewhere north of 24th Ave and south of 42nd.

Tunneling would mitigate the community impact, would permit the best level of service, would enable the NCLRT to connect to the SELRT, which would create a nice simple star-shaped system, and would also not require finding a place in NC Calgary to build a maintenance facility/depot. I don't know whether cut-and-cover or a tunnel boring machine is the better way to go in our soil conditions. I don't know whether it would be better to tunnel under the river, or bring the SELRT to the surface in Eau Claire, with a bridge going over the pathway, across the west end of Prince's Island, and ending at a tunnel entrance in the side of McHugh Bluff.

I don't think a tunnel would be needed past 64th Ave; there's right-of-way there for a road expansion. I can't picture the geometry of the crossing at Beddington Creek and Trail; that may have to be a short elevated span. Past there, there's LRT-designed right of way.

The line should be designed to facilitate an LRT connection to the airport; it would be around 5 km, and could have stops at the planned Aurora stop location, and another one at 96th Ave if the HSR becomes a reality. (Or commuter rail north to Airdrie). It doesn't need to be built at the same time, but it would be a useful project eventually. The airport extension could interline with the NCLRT through downtown, especially since the peak for commuting into the downtown isn't really the airport peak. Ultimately, it could be extended to the 96 Ave NE station on the NELRT, and provide a crosstown connection. There could also be a potential route along Beddington Trail into Symons Valley, which could be planned for in the design of this project.
     
     
  #4347  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2012, 5:31 AM
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My thought is that we should look at at-grade operation very cautiously. The LRT should never, ever operate in mixed traffic for a starter, so the orientation of the ROW is paramount. Station lengths would necessitate several streets being closed across centre, and I am sure many more would be closed to reduce the amount of at-grade crossings to a minimum. As well, centre is not very wide, so if we did at-grade operation, it is likely it would be more like 7th avenue than 36th street.

On the other hand, as important as centre street is, both 4th and Edmonton Trail run parallel, and can ease some of the diverted traffic.

One option would be to run the LRT at grade for sections with right lane operation only for cars (no cross traffic or left turns) and then have the LRT go into an underpass at certain intersections to allow for left turns and cross traffic. I would say 16th avenue would have to be grade-separated no matter what.
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  #4348  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2012, 5:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassic Lab View Post

I really think we should be looking to essentially replicate the Canada Line, except with longer stations, when we build the North Central LRT. The comparison is surprisingly apt. In both cases the line would start in the respective city's downtown, cross under a body of water (False Creek and the Bow River), then continue underground roughly eight kilometres (to Marine Drive and Beddington Trail) before emerging for an elevated or surface ROW. I would consider an airport spur to be extraneous for Calgary and would redirect that cost, along with the cost of elevating the final route, towards longer stations but it would be open to debate. This city and province ought to be able to afford what was built in Vancouver.
I tend to agree with this. It's actually a very similar condition. We have to remember we're not just building this infrastructure for today, we are building it for, well, forever.
     
     
  #4349  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2012, 8:04 PM
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Just to add a few more points to the last few posts:

I somewhat ,admittidely subjectively think that saying that "there are no people there [nose creek]" is almost a good enough analysis. I wouldn't be surprised that if a Cost Benefit were done, and especially depending on who were to do it, that the Nose Creek alignment would come out on top. Not necessarily because it provides a fully better c/b ratio, but the lack of faith I have in how they are done and what indicators would be being used. It might full well be that, especially at peak hours, the trains running on a Nose Creek alignment would do so at enough capacity to justify them running the route in the first place - and thus, aligning itself or better yet, going heads above the other existing lines as being a distinictively commuter line/service; built corresponding to a short-sighted, narrow-viewed manner, lacking full understanding of transit's (transportation's) system interaction with land-use and throwing the importance of accessibility and what by and large, a public transit system stands for out the window.

Cost-benefits are not the be all, end all and nor do they not contain a level of subjectivity, especially, and this may very well be offensive to some, if the people doing them don't fully understand what should and shouldn't be included in them, or that some indicators can almost impossibly be monetized.

So as for the alternative:

A quick look and probably rather crude Google Earth measurement gives a slope of maybe 7 to 7.5% going from the ground surface of Eau Claire to the top of Cresent Heights ground level in a slightly NE direction. Essentially what a surface alignment would then entail, yet and since I can't seem to find the U2s exact slope limitations, a pretty safe, average presumption is no more than a 5% slope under dry conditions can usually be operated on.

So forgetting that this option would also require a hefty sum of expensive property acquistion, as well as traverse over a gem of a park even before falling in line with center st itself, the physicalities are already a constraint.

Now assuming that this rather large obstacle has been overcome, the proposition under the pretense that property be aquired, is that the line run in largely its own ROW (ROW A) and underpasses at key intersections or with some cross traffic conflicts (ROW B). Obviously a ROW A would be the better choice operationally, and one needs only to look as far as 36th st to see why. However, both options would cause rather large seperation effects, with ROW B alignment slightly less so, and definitely adversely impacting the corridor as a desirable urban area and thus, its ability to attract. It may sound rather trivial, but the effect that a barrier has, potentially turning a 20 - 30 m walk into 1000 m is not. A desirable urban area, one with a corresponding focus on neighbourhood mobility can essentially not be acheived with a barrier that would have largely, the same equivalent effect as turning Center St. into something like Crowchild Tr N, would. Transit is good, but not if done wrong and with little regard for the sustainable mobility pattern needed in an urban area that would then feed it, i.e. walkers and bikers. If the goal is to also increase Center St. as a viable, people oriented, urban corridor, or a corridor of urban rejuvanation, then an at grade LRT whose concimitant goal is also to effectively serve outlying suburbs, is not a good option.

Thus, I also largely believe tunneling is likely the most optimal option. How far is another story, but any surface seperations that would stem from an at grade alignment would have to be handled with care, and not made to increase any seperation effects that Center St already poses.

As far as removing a lane or two of traffic. I'd say do it, but perhaps not with an alignment of the current style of LRT in mind.

Thus, and I do believe it has been thrown out before, maybe it is time to rethink the whole thing altogether: A big part of the C train's functional shortcomings is that it tries to do a lot of things at once. It tries to have relatively decent coverage, and it tries to serve outerlying areas with relatively quick travel times to the city core. It has arguably done the latter better. All this, while trying to be implemented very cheaply, and some of these characterstics have come back to bite it. Anyway, the suggestion here then being, that perhaps two lanes should be removed from Center and a Tram is run along Center, right over the current bridge and northwards. At slower operational speeds, it would then also be safe to allow these to operate along the whole street. Perhaps slightly raised just to give it more presence and also so that vehicles of course don't try to find extra lanes (so a ROW B), but if done right (that being key), causing no more additional seperation effects than center st already does if, not eliminating some due to two lanes of traffic less.

This, however, being only one part of the project. Where the other is then the start of a regional rail that indeed uses the nose creek ROW and potentially goes up through the Harvest Hills ROW (or stays closer along Deerfoot) for that matter and acts as an express commuter rail, which is largely what any kind of rail or even PT service that far out needs to act as anyway. It could continue on to that lovely place called Airdrie. (I'm not mentioning any additional land-use policy changes here along the corridor that would be required.) Provisions for a future station or two in Nose Creek itself could be required, if by chance, one day development would happen to occur in there more organicly. This line would also have to make use of its own infrastracture coming into the downtown, not using the current NELRT, and that starts to make costs of these two tandem projects look more in the neighbourhood of a tunnel

That is somewhat of a thought, and doens't take into account that such a Tram would then require another rethink of the SELRT, it's functions and objectives and how they would then connect. Another conflict. Or if they would then even connect...

The main point here being, as has been said, this needs long term thinking. Fifty to 100 year time horizons. Furthermore, the status quo and treating transit as an afterthought is another mentality that needs to go, and transit needs to be understood better as a whole.
     
     
  #4350  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2012, 2:09 AM
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The logic of running an LRT line up the Nose Creek valley strikes me as exactly analogous to the decision Edmonton made with its very first LRT line in the 1970's. They too chose to run their first line into the northeast up an existing rail right of way, in a lightly populated quadrant, in order to meet the new growing suburbs at the cities edge. This saved them money, allowing construction of an underground system in the core. (Of which I am still envious.)

So how did that turn out? Edmonton's LRT sytem was moribund for thirty years, while Calgary's less flashy surface system continued to grow and serve more and more people. It was not until Edmonton started to expand the system southwards, through heavily populated areas, that it got a new lease on life. Lets not repeat this history folks.
     
     
  #4351  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2012, 6:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby View Post
I can't picture the geometry of the crossing at Beddington Creek and Trail; that may have to be a short elevated span. Past there, there's LRT-designed right of way.
The Beddington Trail / Harvest Hills bridge is wide enough to have 4 lanes underneath but currently only 2 lanes. All that would have to be done is move SB traffic over to the east side of the pillars and then on the west side there would be enough room for the LRT line. Likely need another bridge or widen an existing bridge crossing the creek though. This would impact SB to WB traffic but it should not be too bad.

Harvest Hill Blvd will likely need quite a bit of reconstruction as the City really should put the line on the West side of the road as there are fewer traffic access points on that side. I suggested it at an open house, we'll see if they listen. I think they still planned on it being in the middle.
     
     
  #4352  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2012, 6:14 PM
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I'll agree that reducing lanes on centre / having the line cross the 60 or more cross streets would be a nightmare. Even if houses were expropriated, id still want it trenched or elevated on the expropriated land. One thing I did notice, that from 40th to 60th aves there's almost contiguous parkland that an at grade or elevated line could skirt the edge of.
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  #4353  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 1:22 AM
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What about the seniors, like my colleague's 90 year old mother who immigrated from the US a few years ago, who have never paid a PENNY in local property taxes?

Young persons are MUCH more likely to be impoverished than are the elderly. The notion that the elderly are (in general) poor, in Canada, is a myth. A $55/yr transit pass for the elderly with zero income tests is perverse. It's EVIL. You can't come up with any logic to support it that's not easily reducible to absurdity. The only justification for it is political.

We're almost all on "fixed incomes" so don't bring up that nonsense, please.
Well of course it is political, everything is. In the UK the over 65's have free bus travel across the country. It's technically possible to slowly wend your way across country via bus pass. Some seniors now spend the summer touring the prettier parts of the country hopping from town to town like geriatric hippies, except they are cleaner and tend have packed lunches and sensible shoes.

It all depends what you want to do. As people age then sight and mobility issues grow fewer people are able to drive. Do you want a lot of old drivers careering along your roads. In areas with poor public transport it is a real problem. If you resent paying taxes for the over 65's then maybe free passes for the over 70's or 75's might be more appropiate when the ability to drive is really affected by failing eyesight, reaction times or cognitive impairments.
     
     
  #4354  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 1:32 AM
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Does anyone know if there has ever been any thoughts by CT of implementing LED boards and/or recordings announcing bus stops, such as is done in Toronto? I found it very useful, particularly if it was a stop I hadn't been to before, and it was dark out, so that I didn't have to be scouring the dark streetscape trying to determine where I should get off.

(ok I wouldn't do that anyway since I'd be using google maps and GPS on my phone, but the question still stands)
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  #4355  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 1:35 AM
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^ I bet it will be done preemptively at some time. It was done all over Ontario after a human rights complaint if my memory serves.
     
     
  #4356  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 1:48 AM
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^ I bet it will be done preemptively at some time. It was done all over Ontario after a human rights complaint if my memory serves.
It would be nice. I find the phenomenon of "rail bias" isn't really a phenomenon at all, the typical rail experience is simply just better. If you took busses, put in stop announcements and LED boards, put in really high quality suspension so that a small pothole didn't make the entire vehicle shake and rattle, you'd be able to get closer to the rail experience. The only thing you really can't help without a dedicated ROW is abrupt starts and stops.
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  #4357  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 3:22 AM
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Man, having been on sabbatical last term and not having been on the C-Train regularly since last April, I am LOVING the arrival signs on the platforms!
     
     
  #4358  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Koolfire View Post
The Beddington Trail / Harvest Hills bridge is wide enough to have 4 lanes underneath but currently only 2 lanes. All that would have to be done is move SB traffic over to the east side of the pillars and then on the west side there would be enough room for the LRT line. Likely need another bridge or widen an existing bridge crossing the creek though. This would impact SB to WB traffic but it should not be too bad.

Harvest Hill Blvd will likely need quite a bit of reconstruction as the City really should put the line on the West side of the road as there are fewer traffic access points on that side. I suggested it at an open house, we'll see if they listen. I think they still planned on it being in the middle.
There really aren't significant differences between the west and east sides of Harvest Hills Boulevard. There are only three roads where it applies, South Road and Harvest Oak Gate going east and Panatella Gate going west. Of the three I don't think South Road is really a big deal which pretty well makes it a wash. A median ROW really shouldn't be too problematic in the area.

That said, I wonder what the cost of trenching a substantial amount of the route would be. If the city has been smart with utilities, then it might not be too expensive. Particularly given the fact that the trains will likely have to travel below Country Hills Boulevard at a minimum and maybe 96 Ave as well.
     
     
  #4359  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 7:08 AM
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Cost of trenching depends largely on how much land you have. If you have enough to avoid the need to stabilize the trench with bolting and or some sort of a retaining wall, the cost is solely the earth moving cost, and can be rather low depending on the soil. I'm no engineer but you would need to at least expand the ROW by the depth times two to get 45' slopes on each side. So an extra 7 to 8 m of ROW?

For a stabilized trench, like the one built on the West LRT for the 45th St grade separation, was what - an incremental cost of 45-60 million (the figure I remember to be reported in the media at the time) for 600m plus changing the station and adding a bridge. So $75,000 - $100,000 a meter over and above standard costs?
     
     
  #4360  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2012, 8:21 AM
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Cost of trenching depends largely on how much land you have. If you have enough to avoid the need to stabilize the trench with bolting and or some sort of a retaining wall, the cost is solely the earth moving cost, and can be rather low depending on the soil. I'm no engineer but you would need to at least expand the ROW by the depth times two to get 45' slopes on each side. So an extra 7 to 8 m of ROW?

For a stabilized trench, like the one built on the West LRT for the 45th St grade separation, was what - an incremental cost of 45-60 million (the figure I remember to be reported in the media at the time) for 600m plus changing the station and adding a bridge. So $75,000 - $100,000 a meter over and above standard costs?
Was there any conflict with existing utilities for that segment of the West LRT? As I understand it, moving utilities is a major cost driver in tunnelling/trenching projects.
     
     
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