London Public Transit

[haljackey]

This city says no to LRT, no to a downtown bus terminal, and no to adequate buses. Some busy routes come every 30 mins and its terrible for commuters.

Heck, they might even say no to BRT by time the 2030 transportation master plan is finalized this year.

K/W must be laughing at us right now... they have good bus service, a bus terminal, approved plans for LRT and plans for BRT, not to mention GO rail service and highways for efficient long distance bus routes.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by haljackey

This city says no to LRT, no to a downtown bus terminal, and no to adequate buses. Some busy routes come every 30 mins and its terrible for commuters.

Heck, they might even say no to BRT by time the 2030 transportation master plan is finalized this year.

K/W must be laughing at us right now... they have good bus service, a bus terminal, approved plans for LRT and plans for BRT, not to mention GO rail service and highways for efficient long distance bus routes.

And to think that LTC were once very publicly gung-ho on getting BRT in place by 2024! The real problem, of course, is money, and with city hall trying to hold the line on tax increases and find savings in the budget as well, there's not going to be any extra money for the LTC.

In an environment where the insane idea that you can prosper by imposing austerity holds sway, don't be too surprised if a perception eventually develops that even tires for LTC buses are an unaffordable 'frill', never mind whether anything gets done about BRT!

London's problem is that it is a 'someday' kind of city - as in, 'someday the province or the feds will give us the funding we need to invest in transportation, public infrastructure, etc.' So, until 'someday' comes, nothing concrete gets done and everything that needs fixing slowly falls apart. Indeed, if it hadn't been for federal stimulus money, it's a sure bet that recent (and long-overdue sewer and road upgrades, including the new Sarnia Road bridge) simply wouldn't have been done at all.

[haljackey]

What baffles me is that the provincial and federal governments are contributing to a 8 billion+ dollar LRT line in Toronto. That's totally unfair to medium cities like London.

Let's do some basic math and assume London is 1/10th the population and importance of Toronto (it's more like 1/7th population-wise, 350k/2500k). That would mean that, comparably, London could get a 800 million -1 billion+ dollar transit project.

Imagine what London could do with that amount of transit money. It would certainly fill all the deficiencies of our current system and could get BRT or even some LRT started.

Life ain't fair when it comes to funding eh? And that's just one project currently underway in Toronto! And it's also with them 'stopping the Gravy Train' and Rob Ford slashing taxes.

[Wharn]

Sorry to shoot this down so unceremoniously, but you do know Ottawa, the Grand Imperial Capital of our Illustrious Nation, has been trying to get a subway going since at least 1910? And it's what, two or three times the size? The only way we'll see a subway in London is if Earth someday ends up looking like Trantor.

Just a few points... first of all, K/W has a much easier time implementing a transit system because the whole city is centred around one central corridor, and they don't really have to spread their resources evenly like the LTC does. Secondly, the TTC is an absolutely hopeless, pathetic, embarassing mess that you should not be using as a reference point. Anything you see the TTC doing, it is probably doing it wrong.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

What baffles me is that the provincial and federal governments are contributing to a 8 billion+ dollar LRT line in Toronto. That's totally unfair to medium cities like London.

Let's do some basic math and assume London is 1/10th the population and importance of Toronto (it's more like 1/7th population-wise, 350k/2500k). That would mean that, comparably, London could get a 800 million -1 billion+ dollar transit project.

Imagine what London could do with that amount of transit money. It would certainly fill all the deficiencies of our current system and could get BRT or even some LRT started.

Life ain't fair when it comes to funding eh? And that's just one project currently underway in Toronto! And it's also with them 'stopping the Gravy Train' and Rob Ford slashing taxes.

I think this is very important to think about, you raise a good point. Is it simply that London does not ask for the funds and or does not have a plan in place to use them therefore someone like Toronto??

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Wharn

...the TTC is an absolutely hopeless, pathetic, embarassing mess that you should not be using as a reference point. Anything you see the TTC doing, it is probably doing it wrong.

I have no argument here, other than the fact that the TTC receives a lot more funding from upper levels of government than the LTC percentage-wise. While I'm not pushing for parity, imagine how much money for transit London would have if the percentages were fairer.

When it comes to transportation planning, London has truthfully been stupid for the past 50 years. I'm sure if we had some plans in place when the stimulus money started to roll in 2008, more would have been done.

These days we can't even agree on a vague vision when it comes to transportation. Our road system is now pretty much screwed so the only way to improve transportation is through transit. Without basic components like a bus terminal and a decent master plan, London may yet go another decade before anything legitimate could possibly be considered again.

The tax freeze shouldn't change much. Toronto and other Ontario municipalities are tightening their belts yet they are getting more done than London. Joe Fontana has also stated that the tax freeze would not impact projected budget increases for transportation projects and capital road works.
-Despite this, the LTC may raise fares just to maintain the status quo. Something may be fishy here (...But that always seems to be the case when it comes to London. )

[armorand93]

If it makes you guys feel better, Winnipeg is JUST getting started on BRT after:

1959 proposal for Subways (300,000?)
1978 and 1999 LRT proposals and (550,000)
an 2003 BRT attempt. (600,000)

Also, our funds are a mess

[dennis1]

Why not

Parkhill - Alisa Craig- Illderton- Downtown

Port Stanley- St Thomas - Downtown.

Downtown London- Belmont -Tillsonburg

Downtown London - Ingersoll -Woodstock.

Downtown London -Thorndale/Friendly Corners-St Marys

Why not get Oxford, Elgin and Middlesex counties involved?

That why it can bring commuters in and benefit the whole region. I mean LRT by the way.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by dennis1

Why not

Parkhill - Alisa Craig- Illderton- Downtown

Port Stanley- St Thomas - Downtown.

Downtown London- Belmont -Tillsonburg

Downtown London - Ingersoll -Woodstock.

Downtown London -Thorndale/Friendly Corners-St Marys

Why not get Oxford, Elgin and Middlesex counties involved?

That why it can bring commuters in and benefit the whole region. I mean LRT by the way.

I doubt the populations of most of those places could support LRT connections to London.

LRT to Strathroy and St. Thomas would likely be the most economical, although that could have stops in Komoka, the Hyde Park area, and in South London. Buses would be more economical for other communities such as Ilderton that are not on existing rail lines.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I doubt the populations of most of those places could support LRT connections to London.

LRT to Strathroy and St. Thomas would likely be the most economical, although that could have stops in Komoka, the Hyde Park area, and in South London. Buses would be more economical for other communities such as Ilderton that are not on existing rail lines.

True. But I think LRT to the Burbs is will put more people behind the project.

[MolsonExport]

LRT to Ailsa Craig? What the heck are you smoking?
Don't forget a stop in Denfield.

[Snark]

To Denfield? Then Clandeboye as well - just because it has the coolest town name in that area.

And.... LRT? No way. I want Harrier jump jets. That way they can pick me up and drop me off in my backyard. No walking to the stop, and I can sleep in an extra 20 minutes due to reduced transit time.

Oh, and I want them piloted by fricken' sharks with fricken' laser beams on their forehead.

[ssiguy]

I've always thought that sharks with laser beams was an option worth exploring.
Seriously though, I wouldn't agree with commuter buses but rather commuter rail.
The obvious first choice would be PT Stanley/St.Thomas with a stop at Commisioners and then Komoka/Strathroy with a stop at Oxford for UWO. After that perhaps Ingersol/Woodstock.
Now I'm not talking GO trains here but rather something more like the diesell Ottawa O-Trains which are about the size of a standard LRT. The reason I would use rail is that people are more likely to take rail as opposed to bus due to being more comfortable, faster, and having a better reputation. Whether that reputation is actually based on fact is irrelevant as people are much more likely to hop on board a train than a bus. The advantage of using a train is that it takes advantage of current infrastructure but very importantly, it would be better used in the winter. It would offer the reliability that even caars cannot attain during inclimant weather. That would be a big selling point during the winter which is when they would also get the student traffic.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It would offer the reliability that even caars cannot attain during inclimant weather. That would be a big selling point during the winter which is when they would also get the student traffic.

Depends what kind of car.

A FWD or AWD vehicle equipped with snow tires is practically unstoppable. The aforementioned vehicles without snow tires and RWD cars in general, however, are not.

Trains come with their own set of problems. They may be able to match a car's reliability but I doubt they can exceed it. Back when I lived in the Imperial capital, there were many cases of streetcar delays in heavy snow, usually caused by derailments or frozen switches. There were occasional reports of frozen switches on the GO train or the subway/RT lines. And yet the taxi cabs kept going... in fact, they were having a field day getting all the poor commuters home.

[go_leafs_go02]

LTC is introducing new bus stop signs, in blue and white to replace the old black on yellow:

http://ltconline.ca/Pubs/SamplePlateGraphic.pdf

Is that the best they can do? Really, is this the 1980s? They look horrible, and lack any uniqueness. They're a total afterthought, and yes, they're better than the original black/yellow ones, merely for information sake, but they lack any uniqueness to them. I LOVE the clipart bus symbol too...

How about this:



Really, I hope something can be done to spruce up these signs. Just not impressed with them, one bit.

[K85]

Those suck.......

I love yours!!! Submit it to the LTC somehow if they're your own work man!

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by K85

Those suck.......

I love yours!!! Submit it to the LTC somehow if they're your own work man!

Oh they're not mine - they're from Vancouver - Translink. They're fantastic however.

I'll fire off an email to them however.

[manny_santos]

That sign looks like it was produced in under 6 minutes in Microsoft Word. A 10-year-old could've done a better job.

[londoner_abroad]

What an embarrassment!! If I were traveling and I saw that sign I think I would take a picture and show everyone what a failure of a bus company this must be! I would much rather just keep the signs as is then waste the money to change them to this design!? Who makes these decisions? Who designed these?

And these are the same people who will bring us "BRT"!?! Can't wait to see what that will look like - what a joke.

[Wharn]

These honestly look terrible. They're just a hideous jumble of text that reminds me of the Windows 98 BSoD, no logic or thought put into them at all. Why you would even bother replacing the yellow signs when this is all you have to offer is beyond me. Whoever was responsible for the design ought to be fired.

go_leafs_go02's Vancouver bus stops are much more appealing. The routes are neatly laid out in list format, there is a clearly segmented presentation of information, and they can be very easily modified.

We all ought to write snail mail letters to the LTC, and provide them with a link to this page.