NEW YORK | 15 Penn Plaza (Hotel Penn) | 1,050 FT / 315 M | 52 FLOORS - Page 47

THE BIG APPLE · #**921** Posted **Dec 27, 2011, 10:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

Yes there are other sites but the air rights are non-transferable. As for tenants and subsequent construction, well just have to wait and see.

Plus the developer Vornado owns this building. So why would he go buy another building or plot of similar size, and transfer the air rights (if transferrable). To make US happy. I think not.

meh_cd · #**922** Posted **Dec 27, 2011, 10:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189

Isn't there another area near Hotel Penn to build this building or a similar design? I have a feeling that we won't be seeing this here.

MSG has an absolute crapload of air rights, if I remember correctly. We saw some visions/proposals a few years ago of some crystalline twin towers on the MSG site. About 1400 feet each, I believe.

Here is a snapshot. I have the full version somewhere on my computer. You can see 1 Penn Plaza on the bottom left. One of the towers had a spire/antenna in the full render.

Zerton · #**923** Posted **Dec 27, 2011, 11:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dac150

Nowhere in the articles previously posted does it say that this project will face the fate you just described. READ what was actually written and you'll understand that this project is being temporarily shelved until market conditions improve.

Nothing has been cancelled and nothing is going to waste. It's probable that there may be a design change, however the air rights are still intact and future demand will warrant the construction of a sizable building that will more than likely exceed 1000ft. Personally I doubt Vornado will not use one of the two design possibilities for the final product depending on what type of tenant they sign.

It is however very reasonable to expect that any sort of movement on this project will not occur for years to come if Vornado definitely proceeds with the hotel renovations. Disappointing indeed, however by no means suggests the disappearance of this project.

There are talks of renovating the hotel. How does that not say they are shelving this?

RobertWalpole · #**924** Posted **Dec 28, 2011, 12:53 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerton

There are talks of renovating the hotel. How does that not say they are shelving this?

One must understand NYC air rights law to understand this project. A site in NYC with air rights to support a 2.5m sf tower as of right, which this now has, is very rare and extremely valuable. This project will proceed, and superficial renovations won't halt it. Moreover, Vornado, which owns this site, can't transfer them to a site it owns a few blocks away. Lastly, this site's value is truly enhanced by the fact that it's not occupied by ten different buildings with scores of tenants whose leases that would have to be bought out. It is very unusual for a site this large to be occupied by a hotel that can be emptied at will.

jd3189 · #**925** Posted **Dec 28, 2011, 1:12 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

Yes there are other sites but the air rights are non-transferable. As for tenants and subsequent construction, well just have to wait and see.

Dang. Well I hope they find the current building hard to renovate so we can see this tower.

Dac150 · #**926** Posted **Dec 28, 2011, 2:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerton

There are talks of renovating the hotel. How does that not say they are shelving this?

It is being shelved, temporarily. Vornado said from the beginning that they will renovate the property if market conditions do not immediately warrant them to move forward with the project. That in no way means the project has bit the dust, for reasons that were cited a couple posts above . . . this is a very valuable piece of property.

NYguy · #**927** Posted **Dec 28, 2011, 8:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerton

There are talks of renovating the hotel. How does that not say they are shelving this?

We're still debating this? The renovation plan was always in play if tower construction didn't begin immediately - and the renovation plans aren't a definite even now (they're still considering it).

BTW, they have been doing minor work on the hotel (still a dump) over the last couple of years with the intention of at least staying open until a tenant is signed for the office tower. Vornado got two specific designs approved for the tower so it can build depending on market conditions. But - they will not build on spec (without a tenant). Facing competition from nearby developments like Related's Hudson Yards and Brookfield's Manhattan West, Vornado may have to sit it out for a while with this site. Also, keep in mind that Vornado has other sites in play in the immediate area. But again, with sites like the Hudson Yards and Manhattan west picking up steam, I don't think this proposal will stay dormant for long if it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meh_cd

Here is a snapshot. I have the full version somewhere on my computer. You can see 1 Penn Plaza on the bottom left. One of the towers had a spire/antenna in the full render.

More on that here...
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=163351

NYguy · #**928** Posted **Jan 3, 2012, 10:31 PM**

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...mod=WSJ_NY_RealEstate_LEADNewsCollection

15 Penn Plaza
Developer: Vornado Realty Trust

Outlook: Poor

Quote:

Vornado Realty Trust has long dreamed of demolishing the Hotel Pennsylvania across from Pennsylvania Station, and replacing it with a soaring office tower.

But Vornado, one of the most cautious large developers in the city, has no tenants for the 2.8-million-foot tower. Further, the 1,700-room hotel generates gobs of cash—$18 million in the first nine months of 2011—and its revenue goes up every time the economy improves, offsetting the appeal of an office tower.

Andrewjm3D · #**929** Posted **Jan 3, 2012, 10:46 PM**

Nice looking tower but the Penn should be saved.

THE BIG APPLE · #**930** Posted **Jan 4, 2012, 5:34 AM**

I rather trade the hotel for old Penn Station, then I don't care if 15 Penn or anything else would be built around it. But the hotel is one of Mckim, Mead and White's (the greatest architectural firm of all time) last buildings in this area, and should be looked into a bit more, since one of the greatest architectural mishaps happened accross the street in the 60's.

Alliance · #**931** Posted **Jan 4, 2012, 5:51 AM**

It sucks. This was one of the projects that really DESERVED to move forward. At least the hotel will still be there. Its not like new plans cant be drafted later.

Zapatan · #**932** Posted **Jan 4, 2012, 8:42 AM**

^Yea we should see some other buildings around the rest of the West side so it's not too big of a loss.

RobertWalpole · #**933** Posted **Jan 4, 2012, 11:23 AM**

I knew for a fact that those with NY envy would chime in. This will be built. It won't be built in 2012, but it will be built.

For those who know nothing about NY real estate, a site with 2.8m sf, as of right, is like gold -- particularly one that's not occupied by ten smaller buildings with scores of tenants that must be bought out to induce them to move. A site this large that can be emptied in a few weeks' time is unheard of.

When rents for new, Class A space reach $100/sf, as they did before the recession (and as they still are in certain spots), this tower will generate enormous revenue. Once again for those who know nothing about NY development, Vornado took many years to develop the Alexander's site before it developed the Bloomberg tower. Vornado razed the old store, and a vast, full-block site stood empty for years before Vornado found a tenant for the proposed tower.

Lastly, recall that as the financial capital of the world, NY has an unending need for new space.

NYC4Life · #**934** Posted **Jan 4, 2012, 7:34 PM**

^^ I agree this tower will be built eventually, but as long as the Hotel Penn remains profitable for Vornado I don't think they will build 15 Penn at the current site. Office demand is growing, but may be years before the tenants start lining up. The old saying "If you build it, they will come" certainly isn't true in the real estate business, at least not with most developers in the current economy. As crappy as the Hotel Penn currently is, it is much better to leave it standing and operating rather than to raze it a midst uncertainty.

NYguy · #**935** Posted **Jan 5, 2012, 1:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

Nice looking tower but the Penn should be saved.

It's not going to be. It will remain as long as Vornado doesn't have a tenant for the tower. Other than that, best to say your goodbye's early because the way thiings go in Manhattan, that could change quickly.

Stained · #**936** Posted **Jan 6, 2012, 2:05 AM**

I am very excited about this design and location. Hopefully a tenant (or multiple) will be secured soon, although with the WTC and Hudson Yeads/MSG all coming soon, I guess it might be a few years. However, while I think the ESB should still be shown respect as an icon, no one should want a building that old to still dominate a skyline. I look forward to hearing good progress on this throughout the year.

NYguy · #**937** Posted **Jan 6, 2012, 2:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stained

I am very excited about this design and location. Hopefully a tenant (or multiple) will be secured soon,

Every time I'm in the City, I'm looking at where this tower will go, and I'm partial to the single tenant version.
I don't like the feel of that multi-tenant podium on the streetwall, one of the zoning issues Vornado had to get around.

NYguy · #**938** Posted **Jan 6, 2012, 2:46 PM**

A closer look at the single-tenant base...

In the meantime, we'll just have to wait and see which direction it goes and how soon. But it's not like we won't have anything else to watch until then.

Zapatan · #**939** Posted **Jan 6, 2012, 3:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC4Life

^^ I agree this tower will be built eventually, but as long as the Hotel Penn remains profitable for Vornado I don't think they will build 15 Penn at the current site. Office demand is growing, but may be years before the tenants start lining up. The old saying "If you build it, they will come" certainly isn't true in the real estate business, at least not with most developers in the current economy. As crappy as the Hotel Penn currently is, it is much better to leave it standing and operating rather than to raze it a midst uncertainty.

If the hotel is opening back up, it's gonna be a looong time before and if the tower is built I would guess.

yankeesfan1000 · #**940** Posted **Jan 6, 2012, 3:28 PM**

We had this discussion a couple of pages ago. But as RW has pointed out many times, 2.8m sf of developable commercial real estate across the street from the busiest train station in the country, all while not having to go through local community boards, or special approvals, and while owning the building that occupies the entire lot so not having to put up with a deli that doesn't want to move, is an incredibly rare property.

This has also been said before, but the Hotel Penn's renovations are simply bringing it up to par. From what I've heard it is kind of a dump on the inside. It's not like they're renovating a 3 star hotel, up to a 5 star.

Granted it could be 5-8 years before we see construction, but again, we've had this discussion. This isn't cancelled. If you think it is, show us a source on that.