Calgary Public Transit II - Page 216

MalcolmTucker · #**4301** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 5:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radley77

I could see that being the reason. Any thoughts on the cap on number of licenses in Calgary and how to move forward?

Define a value for the licenses, lets say $80k and buy them all out. Pay for the buy out with a dedicated percentage of taxi fares and part of a yearly licensing fee for all taxis. Lower regulated taxi fares to account for not having to lease taxi licenses anymore, and open the market up. Also create additional 'black car' class for schedueled trips.

The alternative would be to keep taxis the way they are, but open up scheduled 'black car' service to unlimited entry. With smart phones, the functional difference shouldn't be all that large these days. Eventually if the black car service was successful, medallions would become far less valueable, then you can buy them out.

para transit fellow · #**4302** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 5:26 PM**

Taxi-paltes are so valuable, some folks will misrepresent their intentions. Jjust because there is a quota for late-night or accessible does not mean that the vehicles will be used in that manner.

For example, In the last batch of wheel-chair accessible plate, it turns out that some of the independants took the wheel-chair accessible plate but have yet to actually take a passenger with a wheelchiar. Other wheelchair accessible taxis ended up exclusively working for Access Calgary where the trip has to be boked the day before.

I am sceptical of the promises from Calgary Livery Association.

fusili · #**4303** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 5:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Define a value for the licenses, lets say $80k and buy them all out. Pay for the buy out with a dedicated percentage of taxi fares and part of a yearly licensing fee for all taxis. Lower regulated taxi fares to account for not having to lease taxi licenses anymore, and open the market up. Also create additional 'black car' class for schedueled trips.

The alternative would be to keep taxis the way they are, but open up scheduled 'black car' service to unlimited entry. With smart phones, the functional difference shouldn't be all that large these days. Eventually if the black car service was successful, medallions would become far less valueable, then you can buy them out.

This is a great idea.

Cage · #**4304** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 5:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radley77

I could see that being the reason. Any thoughts on the cap on number of licenses in Calgary and how to move forward?

1. Further split cab licenses into Driver and Vehicle categories. Drivers individually pay for a Livery Driver license. Vehicles would be licensed separately.

2. Alter vehicle licenses to automatically expire on the fifth anniversay of vehicle manufacture date. Adjust bylaws to require annual maintenance inspection and have all maintenance items from owners manual remain current.

3. Drivers livery license would have criminal background check and training requirements.

4. Increase limit on vehicle licenses from 1400 to 2000 in one year and 2500 licenses in three years.

5. Increase drivers livery license fro 3900 to 5000 over the same period.

Any increase in the vehicle license cap will be deterimental to those individuals who paid for a vehicle license throug secondary market. However there is no other way to increase the number of vehicles and secondary markets tend to be a bad investment (take pyramid schemes for example).

The only way to remove the secondary market system is to adjust licenses to restrict the resale t other parties. When a license is not renewed, it is forefeited to the city and redistributed.

Cage · #**4305** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 5:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Define a value for the licenses, lets say $80k and buy them all out. Pay for the buy out with a dedicated percentage of taxi fares and part of a yearly licensing fee for all taxis. Lower regulated taxi fares to account for not having to lease taxi licenses anymore, and open the market up. Also create additional 'black car' class for schedueled trips.

At $80k per license, the invoice amounts to 104 million dollars and that assumes you are only buying out the original 1311 licenses. This represents a huge windfall for Yellow Cab etal as the cab companies own over 50% of the vehicle plates.

The easier (although more cold hearted approach) is to increase the number of vehicle plates and allow the secondary market to die a quick death. Some people will be out cash, however I bet most of the losses will be incurred by the cab companies with very few if any individuals making a loss.

MalcolmTucker · #**4306** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 6:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

At $80k per license, the invoice amounts to 104 million dollars and that assumes you are only buying out the original 1311 licenses. This represents a huge windfall for Yellow Cab etal as the cab companies own over 50% of the vehicle plates.

The easier (although more cold hearted approach) is to increase the number of vehicle plates and allow the secondary market to die a quick death. Some people will be out cash, however I bet most of the losses will be incurred by the cab companies with very few if any individuals making a loss.

It only takes one sob story to turn public opinion around, an entrepeneur, investing in good faith, likely a new immigrant, now the city changes the rules of the game, etc.

No reason to make perfect the enemy of the good. If the goal is to increase the number of taxis on the road, then as long as the solution doesn't create an even larger secondary market and valuation to licenses, it is fine.

Under a buy out funded by tax and fee plan, if you raise $10.5 million a year, you can pay off the loan in 16-17 years (at 6% interest rate). I think everyone comes out ahead except for license holders taking a hair cut down to $80k per license.

fusili · #**4307** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 6:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Define a value for the licenses, lets say $80k and buy them all out. Pay for the buy out with a dedicated percentage of taxi fares and part of a yearly licensing fee for all taxis. Lower regulated taxi fares to account for not having to lease taxi licenses anymore, and open the market up. Also create additional 'black car' class for schedueled trips.

The alternative would be to keep taxis the way they are, but open up scheduled 'black car' service to unlimited entry. With smart phones, the functional difference shouldn't be all that large these days. Eventually if the black car service was successful, medallions would become far less valueable, then you can buy them out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

At $80k per license, the invoice amounts to 104 million dollars and that assumes you are only buying out the original 1311 licenses. This represents a huge windfall for Yellow Cab etal as the cab companies own over 50% of the vehicle plates.

The easier (although more cold hearted approach) is to increase the number of vehicle plates and allow the secondary market to die a quick death. Some people will be out cash, however I bet most of the losses will be incurred by the cab companies with very few if any individuals making a loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It only takes one sob story to turn public opinion around, an entrepeneur, investing in good faith, likely a new immigrant, now the city changes the rules of the game, etc.

No reason to make perfect the enemy of the good. If the goal is to increase the number of taxis on the road, then as long as the solution doesn't create an even larger secondary market and valuation to licenses, it is fine.

I think it is a good idea. If we recuperate some of the costs through a percentage of fares it works out well.

The current system benefits one group- Taxi companies, to the detriment of everyone else: passengers, taxi drivers, police dealing with drunk drivers, the city as a whole. Get rid of it. The sooner the better.

Cage · #**4308** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 7:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It only takes one sob story to turn public opinion around, an entrepeneur, investing in good faith, likely a new immigrant, now the city changes the rules of the game, etc.

No reason to make perfect the enemy of the good. If the goal is to increase the number of taxis on the road, then as long as the solution doesn't create an even larger secondary market and valuation to licenses, it is fine.

Under a buy out funded by tax and fee plan, if you raise $10.5 million a year, you can pay off the loan in 16-17 years (at 6% interest rate). I think everyone comes out ahead except for license holders taking a hair cut down to $80k per license.

The sob stories are highly unlikely to come from new immigrant who paid 140k for his plate and are now out a lot of money. More likely the buyer at 140k was a taxi cab company. I just can't see any bank or other debt investor forking over $140k or even $80k for a plate license that can be revoked at any time.

More likely are the sob stories of drivers who are looking for a big cash out onm retirement. These individuals are not out any money, and its unlikely that they would all see 140k anyways. THe city would have an easy public relations time dealing with the sob stories becuase the overall payout is such a large figure. At 80k per license we are talking about a recreation center or signficant piece of roadwork.

Another thing, speaking as a professional who has been on the inside of many valuations and legal battles, I think 80k is a little undervalued. more likely the valuation would settle out closer to 140k. There would be no market premium however fair makert value appears to be closer to 140k. Any attempt at getting a significant discount or setting an arbitrary low buy out figure would bring lawsuits and other court actions. Overall I would give the the following probablities to payout scenario:
1. 10% chance less than 100k
2. 70% chance of FMV 140k
3. 20% chance the court awards a market buyout premium of 20% over FM or 170k.

At 170k your buyout option is $225 million, about the cost of the tunderpass without all the contingencies.

Also you tax or fee program does not make much sense. My rough calculations using the conservative numbers suggested above (80k buyout, 6% interest, 15 year payout horizon) suggest a 10-12% tax to pay for the buyout. Finally to get anywhere near the 6% interest figure the City of Calgary would have to utilize its borrowing power and encumber its assets by a further $100-$200 miliion., which impacts the ability of the city of debt finance other projects like roadworks, LRT, Rec centers etc.

MalcolmTucker · #**4309** Posted **Dec 21, 2011, 9:54 PM**

Well, the buyout wouldn't come out of infrastructure funds, it would be self financing.

As for value of the permits, since so few change hands, I doubt the real value of the same number of permits sold at a dutch auction would be as high as the marginal sales we see today. Could be wrong however.

The only case I remember of quota buyout was the recent federal/provincial tobacco quota buyout. Would have to look at how they did the valuation.

freeweed · #**4310** Posted **Dec 22, 2011, 3:57 AM**

I'm really confused as to how people can defend/justify this system.

Can I lobby the city to stop allowing any new residential construction, to keep the value of my house going up forever? Sounds pretty 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 ridiculous doesn't it? Why would this sort of nonsense be tolerated for corporations and not private citizens?

Issue new licenses. Problem solved. Cover it up with "we're trying to reduce drinking and driving" - have fun arguing against that one, cab companies.

Radley77 · #**4311** Posted **Dec 22, 2011, 4:47 AM**

The other thing I think I have found interesting with respect to the taxi issue is that I have come across a number of people who say they have been okay with turnaround times, but can't get through to dispatch. I'm wondering if the taxi companies are covering up the fact when reports are drawn up that that they have bad service by just not recording missed calls or not including times that phone is ringing busy or on hold...

Radley77 · #**4312** Posted **Dec 22, 2011, 4:59 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'm really confused as to how people can defend/justify this system.

Can I lobby the city to stop allowing any new residential construction, to keep the value of my house going up forever? Sounds pretty 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 ridiculous doesn't it? Why would this sort of nonsense be tolerated for corporations and not private citizens?

Issue new licenses. Problem solved. Cover it up with "we're trying to reduce drinking and driving" - have fun arguing against that one, cab companies.

I don't understand why it has been like this for 25 years either, and why if this was needed for the Olympics that it didn't expire immediately after. 25 years later, and cab drivers are renting them out for $200/week or $150,000/license and it seems like they are being treated more like assets now.

MalcolmTucker · #**4313** Posted **Dec 22, 2011, 2:34 PM**

$200 a week? I've heard from cabbies a couple years ago it was $80 a shift (including rentiing the cab).

Radley77 · #**4314** Posted **Dec 22, 2011, 4:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

$200 a week? I've heard from cabbies a couple years ago it was $80 a shift (including rentiing the cab).

This was from FCPP and I totally don't know how accurate the $200 per week figure is:
http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/3600

I wonder what the fair market value is to these licenses and what the incremental value would be to the new market you had proposed with an annual license fee and %age of fare. With market liberalization including growth of taxi numbers, a premium peak time surcharge and a nighttime premium charge I think your concept would be self-financing.

srperrycgy · #**4315** Posted **Dec 31, 2011, 7:43 AM**

As of the 1st, the Senior Annual Transit Pass will increase to $55/year.
The Low-Income Senior Annual Pass will remain at $15/year.

I did some research and found that the Calgary Transit rate is the lowest in the country:

Vancouver $558/yr (Low-Income Pass available at $45/yr)
Edmonton $156/yr (Low-Income Pass available at $121.50/yr)
Saskatoon $268.75/yr
Regina $202.00/yr
Winnipeg $462.00/yr
Ottawa $444.00/yr (Some Senior Free Fare Days)
Hamilton $205/yr (Free over 80)
Toronto $1248/yr
Montreal $525/yr
Quebec City $847.80/yr
Saint John $600/yr
Halifax $624/yr
St. John's $540/yr

Just putting the data out there. Discuss.

Full Mountain · #**4316** Posted **Dec 31, 2011, 6:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

As of the 1st, the Senior Annual Transit Pass will increase to $55/year.
The Low-Income Senior Annual Pass will remain at $15/year.

I did some research and found that the Calgary Transit rate is the lowest in the country:

Vancouver $558/yr (Low-Income Pass available at $45/yr)
Edmonton $156/yr (Low-Income Pass available at $121.50/yr)
Saskatoon $268.75/yr
Regina $202.00/yr
Winnipeg $462.00/yr
Ottawa $444.00/yr (Some Senior Free Fare Days)
Hamilton $205/yr (Free over 80)
Toronto $1248/yr
Montreal $525/yr
Quebec City $847.80/yr
Saint John $600/yr
Halifax $624/yr
St. John's $540/yr

Just putting the data out there. Discuss.

I can understand giving seniors a discount but the extent of the current discount is by far to large, for most places student and senior discounts are similar. So using as a stating point a $220 student U-Pass (4 month) extrapolated over a year start the seniors yearly pass at $660 or $55 per month, still a significant discount over an adult pass, and place the low income pass at $360 per year or $30 per month

With These Prices
Adult Pass to Seniors Pass - ~40% discount
Seniors Pass to Low Income Seniors Pass - ~45% discount

Just my thoughts

5seconds · #**4317** Posted **Dec 31, 2011, 7:26 PM**

I think a means-tested discount is a must, but I don't think it should be linked to age. If you cannot afford the regular pass, then there will be discounts available, but if you can afford full-fare, you should pay full-fare.

Maybe a 2-tiered system, the $15 pass that they have for those that really cannot afford more, and a $100 pass for those that are on a limited/fixed-income but can afford a little more (most seniors etc)

I think the $55/year pass, for about half of a regular monthly pass, is a steal.

On another note, does anyone know why Calgary transit does not offer standard-fare yearly passes? I would think they would be popular. I think a $1000-$1050 pass (about a 5-10% discount) would be a good thing for the city and the riders.

mersar · #**4318** Posted **Dec 31, 2011, 11:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5seconds

On another note, does anyone know why Calgary transit does not offer standard-fare yearly passes? I would think they would be popular. I think a $1000-$1050 pass (about a 5-10% discount) would be a good thing for the city and the riders.

A few reasons come to my mind. One is that they already have a captive market who will gladly pay the monthly rate so in that case it makes more sense in terms of cost recovery to take that money. The second reason is likely that very few other cities do offer a yearly pass (No major transit system in Canada does to my knowledge), and with the electronic fares coming this summer the convience factor will increase even more with the monthly passes if you will be able to have them automatically reload as its been alluded to.

5seconds · #**4319** Posted **Dec 31, 2011, 11:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mersar

...and with the electronic fares coming this summer the convience factor will increase even more with the monthly passes if you will be able to have them automatically reload as its been alluded to.

That will be a good thing. In London, when you wanted to renew a pass on your Oyster card, you could do it online, and it would automatically reload your card the next time you swiped in at your 'home' station. It was totally seamless.

I'm sure you are right about the other reasons not to offer a yearly pass. Still, from a rider's point of view, yearly passes are pretty handy, especially with an employer who offer interest free loans for the passes and deduct the cost monthly. (My old work did this, and it saved me quite a lot)

ByeByeBaby · #**4320** Posted **Jan 1, 2012, 12:36 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5seconds

On another note, does anyone know why Calgary transit does not offer standard-fare yearly passes? I would think they would be popular. I think a $1000-$1050 pass (about a 5-10% discount) would be a good thing for the city and the riders.

It's probably not the only reason, but an annual pass is essentially printing a thousand dollar bill, with the security and counterfeit measures implied. It's hard-ish to fence transit passes, I'm guessing, so the level of printing technology CT uses is enough to discourage counterfeiting; with an annual pass, it would be a much more attractive target. And if someone lost their wallet, 🞵🞵🞵🞵 goes $1K.