Phoenix Development News (3)

[HooverDam]

^Nick, can you get some photos of Oasis on Grand? Im very disappointed from your description.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

^Nick, can you get some photos of Oasis on Grand? Im very disappointed from your description.

Sign at the corner of Grand, 15th and Roosevelt.



The enterance off of Grand actually looks decent IMO. Unfortunately it's kind of hidden.







This is the view from 15th Ave looking north. This view looks terrible. There is a big empty dirt lot and car graveyard across the street from it.



Maybe it's because I'm not real artsy but these bright multi-colored railings look terrible. I would have preferred that they stuck with the 1930's - 1950's motor inn look with maybe turquoise railings.



Empty lot across the street from it:



Hopefully something happens on the empty lot, even if it's just a little bit of landscaping to line the street.

[HooverDam]

Well this is hard to believe, but that is an improvement. Its not great, but the building looked like a war zone before. My biggest complaint is the lack of shade trees and that grey block is nice but a bit harsh, some nice vines or greenery creeping up the building would've been nice.

[Vicelord John]

ground floor units are going to get broken into like a mother fucker.

[gymratmanaz]

Hold me. I'm scared.

[Leo the Dog]

What was this before it got renovated?! It looks like an old Motel 6.

I agree with VLJ, no way I'd keep my sliding glass door open for fresh air.

Edit: I just looked at it on Google's street view. The Oasis Motel. Hard to believe, but it really is a HUGE improvement as to what the building used to look like.

[nickw252]

HUGE improvement. Hopefully it will spur more development in the area.

[phxSUNSfan]

Wow and Ewww! The Oasis on Grand looks like it belongs in downtown Tucson with all those colors and dirt lot across the street. But, it is a huge improvement from what it looked liked before, for sure.

Agreed...unless those patio doors are made of security glass, have a steel bar to secure them from sliding, and have "sensor" lighting to scare away would-be thieves, expect your place to get broken into. Bring on some development and that will go a long way in preventing property crimes.

[hrivas]

I think the colors add to the building's flair. They could have easily been painted a solid color and been humdrum same-old-same-old but they are different and are a good contrast to the gray brick. I would have gone for bolder colors but I'm guessing the pastel/easter looking colors were chosen to hint at the building's midcentury heritage.

I think more could have been done to alleviate the fears of crime but I like the openness of the patios to the street. The patio spaces are a lot better than the jail cells that were there. It looks like the railings have gates that open to the sidewalk. I like that though it would be nicer if the gates were better defined.

as for street trees, in the image shown there is what looks like a bus pull in. Any trees in those narrow planters would grow into the patios on the buildings. The image below is taken a bit farther west on Roosevelt and shows some trees present along the sidewalk. Unfortunately, the trees seem to be a bit too far from the sidewalk. I also wish the planters along the patio spaces were filled with dense desert vegetation. It would help separate the private patios and the sidewalk areas.


source: http://downtownphoenixjournal.com/2011/10/18/oasis-grand/

Its a good improvement to the neighborhood.

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by hrivas

I think the colors add to the building's flair. They could have easily been painted a solid color and been humdrum same-old-same-old but they are different and are a good contrast to the gray brick. I would have gone for bolder colors but I'm guessing the pastel/easter looking colors were chosen to hint at the building's midcentury heritage.

I think more could have been done to alleviate the fears of crime but I like the openness of the patios to the street. The patio spaces are a lot better than the jail cells that were there. It looks like the railings have gates that open to the sidewalk. I like that though it would be nicer if the gates were better defined.

as for street trees, in the image shown there is what looks like a bus pull in. Any trees in those narrow planters would grow into the patios on the buildings. The image below is taken a bit farther west on Roosevelt and shows some trees present along the sidewalk. Unfortunately, the trees seem to be a bit too far from the sidewalk. I also wish the planters along the patio spaces were filled with dense desert vegetation. It would help separate the private patios and the sidewalk areas.


source: http://downtownphoenixjournal.com/2011/10/18/oasis-grand/

Its a good improvement to the neighborhood.

That picture actually looks a lot nicer, with the planting of trees and vegetation, than the pics previously posted. Perhaps they will plant more in the strip between the sidewalk and patio? Looks like there is still plenty of landscaping to do...

[hrivas]

*note that picture is from mid-october.

[gymratmanaz]

Those are the same variet like the ones planted at Chase Bank downtown. They grow quickly and canopy wonderfully.

I agree. The picture showing the planting make it look much, much nicer!!!!

[TakeFive]

^^ I don't mind the the lipstick used.
Whether the concept of live/work units sells is beyond me. If they can generate a little cash flow while holding the land I'm sure they'll be content.

[Don B.]

Cool stuff. I love adaptive re-use of buildings such as this.

As for crime, most Phoenix-area suburbanites think ANYTHING in the central city (defined loosely as anything east of SR 51 and south of Dunlap inside the mountain preserves) is some sort of horrific crime-ridden ghetto with police helicopters circling overhead all the time. This includes YOUR neighborhood, John, as well as mine. LOL...

--don

[Vicelord John]

Um I'm not talking about what the suburbanites think, I'm talking about that neighborhood having a high population of roaming drug addicts and how easy those units would be to break into and steal something worth enough to get a rock.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Don B.

Cool stuff. I love adaptive re-use of buildings such as this.

As for crime, most Phoenix-area suburbanites think ANYTHING in the central city (defined loosely as anything east of SR 51 and south of Dunlap inside the mountain preserves) is some sort of horrific crime-ridden ghetto with police helicopters circling overhead all the time. This includes YOUR neighborhood, John, as well as mine. LOL...

--don

Don, you participated in the census. Maybe you know the stats...Isn't most of Central Phoenix more suburban than the actual suburbs in terms of population density?

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Don, you participated in the census. Maybe you know the stats...Isn't most of Central Phoenix more suburban than the actual suburbs in terms of population density?

This has to be impossible... there are so many more apartments in central phoenix. There is bunch of midcentury stuff that has to contribute to high population densities.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by PHX31

This has to be impossible... there are so many more apartments in central phoenix. There is bunch of midcentury stuff that has to contribute to high population densities.

I think it's close, that's why I posted the question to Don, who seems to follow PHX demographics closely.

There are also many vacant lots and non-residential districts with populations of zero. Central Phoenix lot sizes are much larger (and include alley ways) in the older neighborhoods compared to newer development in the suburbs.

[Don B.]

^ Let me find my numbers (admittedly, they date from the 2000 Census; I haven't had the time or inclination to update this information with block data for 2010).

Ahh, here we go:

Central Phoenix consists of roughly the 1960 city limits of Phoenix. It had about 760,000 people living in about 140 square miles in 2000, excluding some preserve lands, and had a density of well over 5,000 people per square mile (ppsm). By comparison, the rest of the city covers about 400 additional square miles, with about 550,000 people. Yes, that is an overall density of just over 1,000 ppsm, but a lot of this land is undeveloped or large desert preserves.

As a reference point, Phoenix had about 430,000 people in 1960. That same area in 2000 had about 760,000.

The per capita income of central Phoenix is about 10% less than the average for the entire city. If you removed Camelback East, which has a lot of money, from these numbers, the per capita income for central Phoenix would be almost 30% below the average.

A discussion about population density:

Most U.S. cities follow the following paradigm: Very high population densities in the core (peak), followed by steep drops in densities as you move into the suburbs. If you graphed this out, it would look like a very steep mountain. For example, Kansas City still has some inner city neighborhoods with 10,000 people per square mile or more. Note during the 1940s, these same inner city areas were over 20,000 ppsm. The Kansas City suburbs, by contrast, are very low density, with many houses on acre lots or more, yielding densities of about 2,000 to 1,000 ppsm or less. Phoenix never had that sort of density in the core, so here, the "inner city" looks like a large plateau with densities of about 5,000 ppsm. This drops very gradually into the built Phoenix suburbs, with many reaching densities of 3,000 to 4,000 ppsm or more.

Put another way, older U.S. cities are at least twice as dense in the core, and half as dense in the suburbs or less. This is why the "urban footprint" (or urbanized area, if you will) of Phoenix is far smaller than eastern/northern cities. For one thing, land costs are much higher in Phoenix, ensuring smaller lot sizes.

Overall, my prediction for the 2010 census will probably show similar numbers. There might be a slight drop from the 760,000 counted in central Phoenix in 2000, offset by a sizable increase in the farther flung reaches of the city. It is fairly clear from glancing over the preliminary block data that central Phoenix may have lost as many as 100,000 Hispanics from 2006-on, and may have continued to have white flight (which has been happening in certain inner city neighborhoods of Phoenix since World War II, just like in many other U.S. cities).

--don

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Don B.

A discussion about population density:

Most U.S. cities follow the following paradigm: Very high population densities in the core (peak), followed by steep drops in densities as you move into the suburbs. If you graphed this out, it would look like a very steep mountain. For example, Kansas City still has some inner city neighborhoods with 10,000 people per square mile or more. Note during the 1940s, these same inner city areas were over 20,000 ppsm. The Kansas City suburbs, by contrast, are very low density, with many houses on acre lots or more, yielding densities of about 2,000 to 1,000 ppsm or less. Phoenix never had that sort of density in the core, so here, the "inner city" looks like a large plateau with densities of about 5,000 ppsm. This drops very gradually into the built Phoenix suburbs, with many reaching densities of 3,000 to 4,000 ppsm or more.

Put another way, older U.S. cities are at least twice as dense in the core, and half as dense in the suburbs or less. This is why the "urban footprint" (or urbanized area, if you will) of Phoenix is far smaller than eastern/northern cities. For one thing, land costs are much higher in Phoenix, ensuring smaller lot sizes.

Overall, my prediction for the 2010 census will probably show similar numbers. There might be a slight drop from the 760,000 counted in central Phoenix in 2000, offset by a sizable increase in the farther flung reaches of the city. It is fairly clear from glancing over the preliminary block data that central Phoenix may have lost as many as 100,000 Hispanics from 2006-on, and may have continued to have white flight (which has been happening in certain inner city neighborhoods of Phoenix since World War II, just like in many other U.S. cities).

--don

Thanks Don, excellent, well thought out response. I'm looking forward to your 2010 census analysis. It'll be fascinating to see changes that have occurred since 2000.