Rail-based Transit Discussion

[W.Sobchak]

Awesome, another study in transit.

I guess I can understand the need, I mean this is new technology. and we'd be the first to do it, trail blazers we'd be!.... waait a minute no we're not!

I wonder every time I read about a new study the city commissions, if somebody(s) haven't already did one. I know our terrain leads us to more of a slightly special case, somewhat. But really, compiling the reports done in the last 10 years, then correlating with geological/economical data widely available to us, the city staff are more than capable to come to the conclusion that commuter rail is a GOOD thing.

Shoot I'm sure they could even sod that mole hill for the city, after they grade it, by saying an LRT would act as a bulwark for the commuter rail in the core.

My we are a studious city!

[Jstaleness]

This is related to High Speed rather than commuter but the idea is the same.

• Video Link

[W.Sobchak]

Bwahahahaha!!!

[someone123]

Actually the HRM staff reports frequently seem heavily biased against new forms of transit. I'm not sure who exactly will do this study but I think it has to be done by a third party in accordance with CN's demands. If that is true it's a good thing.

There are lots of problems with Bedford commuter rail but it could be a good starter project. Bedford Highway traffic is bad enough that the train doesn't have to be very good to be worthwhile. ~$25M is also cheap enough that it can be a bit of a niche service.

I hope that, if this is built, it will tie in with some kind of improved transit service for the urban core. Streetcars would be great and would not be too expensive: http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/index.htm

Imagine connecting a peninsula streetcar system up to the Bedford commuter rail at Mumford. That could provide a more direct route downtown plus it would be possible to serve areas like the hospitals, universities, shipyard, etc.

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by someone123

Imagine connecting a peninsula streetcar system up to the Bedford commuter rail at Mumford. That could provide a more direct route downtown plus it would be possible to serve areas like the hospitals, universities, shipyard, etc.

Not to mention make Halifax seem like the modern forward thinking city it used to be.

[19200]

Interesting discussion.

RDC's on the current infrastructure is the answer.

HRM is planning $18m for an underpass out of Chain Lake. (where they painfully took up the remainder of the Chester Subdivision.)

They ballpark the Bayers Rd widening at $22m.

There's $40m that we could have put on the Commuter Rail project, that had a rough estimate of $30m to start.

Priority's for the system in order:

1) Service from elmsdale on CN's Bedford Sub.

2) Fall River through Burnside to the Dartmouth Ferry on the Dartmouth Sub.

3) Service from new Park and Ride on 101 near Adoise (exit 4) over WHRC right of way (former DAR) to Windsor Jct, then over CN ROW to Downtown.

4) Extend the former Dartmouth Sub to park and ride stations to be build where the Dartmouth Sub crosses Caldwell Rd and Bisset Rd. Service to run from these stations to the Woodside Ferry, second Ferry added to allow 15min Service.

5) Rebuild the Chester Sub to Exit 5 on 103.

This steps go up in order of cost, but are very inexpensive compared to idea's of Subway's and LRT.

I don't for one minute think the VIA rail terminal is too far, I, and many other folks can walk it in 6min from Downtown. I spend a lot longer waiting for my bus, never mind how long I spend sitting on the bridge in traffic.

It's easy math, and 75% of the land is cleared, ready, and some of it has track built.

Now we just need political will.

[MonctonRad]

Welcome to the forum BTW!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by 19200

I don't for one minute think the VIA rail terminal is too far, I, and many other folks can walk it in 6min from Downtown. I spend a lot longer waiting for my bus, never mind how long I spend sitting on the bridge in traffic.

Even if people don't want to walk, the rail terminal could be served by the #8 Waterfront bus if it is not already, or some sort of shuttle.

I do think that something more significant needs to be done for transit eventually (on the level of LRT), but at $30-40M the commuter rail route doesn't have to be the perfect service right away. It just has to be better than the 80, which is not difficult.

Longer term improvements could include something like a short tunnel that goes downtown, some new rail ROWs on the peninsula, busways, and streetcars.

[19200]

By all means. Those who wish or can, could walk.

A loop Bus, running Hollis to the front of the Station, then back out Lower Water would work.

The eventual goal would be an LRT to get the people from the downtown core to the station with a slightly greater level of ease.

[cormiermax]

They should do a major expansion of the Via station too make it ready for a commuter rail and an eventual LRT.

[MonctonRad]

The ultimate solution is a multipronged approach.

- heavy commuter rail (like the GO Trains in Toronto) to get people from the "burbs" onto the peninsula
- LRT/streetcars for the peninsula itself
- an enhanced ferry service to get people across the harbour

The quickest and simplest thing to accomplish is the heavy commuter rail. This would require minimal investment and give substantial bang for the buck. This should be a top priority for HRM.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The quickest and simplest thing to accomplish is the heavy commuter rail. This would require minimal investment and give substantial bang for the buck. This should be a top priority for HRM.

This issue has suffered from classic "analysis paralysis" for over a decade. It's gotten tons of attention but they've flip-flopped between ferry and rail, and for whatever reason the internally-generated transit reports seem incredibly conservative and biased in favour of simple solutions like added buses. Unfortunately, the route in question cannot be improved by adding more buses because fundamentally there is not enough road capacity (the new 102 exit may have helped but the 102 is also pretty busy). Adding buses would actually make the traffic problem worse.

I'm worried that the quality of living in Halifax will really go downhill if the city continue to grow but the type of transportation infrastructure used remains the same. Buses can be great. In small towns where traffic is not too bad you get improvements just from adding more buses (and minor improvements like signaling, turning lanes, or whatever). Halifax is getting past this point to the point where congestion and sprawl cripple the value of buses, but HRM transit planning is still in small town mode. They need to switch gears into mid-sized city mode, where they look at solutions with dedicated rights of way.

Elaborate subway type solutions costing billions are too expensive for Halifax but LRT is not. Sadly we're not even close to this type of thinking. In cities like Kitchener-Waterloo and Victoria they are making concrete plans for systems that will cost in the hundreds of millions of dollars. In Halifax, regional council cannot get it together enough to commit to a $30-40M commuter rail pilot type project.

[halifaxboyns]

I wonder if maybe the way to get the commuter rail started it to walk away from it and do something else, like a series of streetcar LRT systems for the Peninsula, Mainland Halifax and Dartmouth?

These are systems which would cost much more money to build (I'm guessing in the range of about $100 million a pop, with tracks, trains and stops) but would then allow a significant focus of growth on the peninsula first? They could build 2, the routes I've suggested (Agricola and Windsor into DT) and then show how much people would want to use the system as a basis for establishing regional rail. The only catch is, if you build the streetcars and they totally fail - then regional rail would too. But I don't think that would happen...

The one thing I have agreed with from every forum member who says it; that via rail station is the saddest, under used facility ever. We have a really nice old style building that could be quite busy...if we do it right.

If you do the streetcar idea first - the lines could feed right to the train station and back into downtown; so that once you got a couple RR lines going - there was your transfer point. Depending on how far out the streetcar lines went, another transfer point could also be Mumford - this way people wanting to get to the universities or hospitals could file off at Mumford and then people for the downtown core, would get off at the train station.

If a streetcar(s) aren't done first - I would still say Mumford/Train Station would be the main connection points and you would need to have a series of buses from either point to get people to the universities/hospitals and DT core (the core from the train station only). The 8 would be a big help, but what better excuse to bring back the good old #11? Haven't had that number in service for a while, or the 12 or 16?

So why not something like this:
Train Station Routes: 8 (existing route, increased service) plus route 11 - train station to IWK/Dalhousie and QE2 medical centre (service to SMU using route 9).

Mumford Routes: Route 12 - Mumford to QE2 medical centre/Dalhousie (robie strett) and SMU.

[19200]

Interesting to see the bit on CBC news last night about a campaign to bring back the Railiner.

I guess this line of thinking is popular.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I still think that starting with a BRT in the railcut, and then expanding it in sections to LRT makes so much sense. The highest populations generally follow the railway, both on peninsula, and off. Even just the addition uninterrupted buses on this route would be a game changer for the whole city. I think a bus actually makes more sense for the places farther away...

[wackypacky]

Originally Posted by 19200

Interesting to see the bit on CBC news last night about a campaign to bring back the Railiner.

I guess this line of thinking is popular.

I know everyone I'm an idiot lol, but whats the railiner...I'm only a young feller if that makes me seem any less moronic.
Another thing, I would love to see commuter rail obviously, but Halifax has to be the number one priority. Dartmouth should be next but since your going through Bedford to get to my beautiful Dartmouth we might as well take care of Bedford while were doing it. As far as money for this goes, politicians(well people in general really, since there all the same)need to look at the big picture for once. Any money spent on something like this is only going to pay huge down the road when Halifax is in its ultimate prime. Not only will it attract people to our lovely city, but we'd save huge on costs associated with sitting in traffic,we'd cut back on emissions, among many other benefits.. This is what drives me crazy about this place. Nobody seams to realize in order to make money you have to spend it
(And for love of god I cant believe how many people think wed be better off not paying taxes. If im wrong for lard Jesus sakes let me know immediately I could use a vaca lol. Its so damn frustrating reading about projects getting squashed and delayed. As far as commuter rail just from Bedford to downtown, I think you guys are all tLynsey Bartilsonryin to trick me here or something lol, just not viable, the trains would be like a dessert, jsut another embarrassment for hali Not anywhere near the required population. On top of that were talking Halifax here, were way behind everywhere else. Someone prove me wrong please and find me a commuter rail system serving a TOWN like bedford(where everyone's gonna drive anyway got they've got the scrizz, you don't buy a beamer to use public transit to get to work). And im looking for a noth american example cause obviously Eurpe's a bit more advanced in this/most departments really. If it cant be found in NA i suppose Europe would be acceptable. Your only gettin half credit goin through Euopre though lol Anyway i apoligize for the ramble done. On here religiously likr 3 times a day but never really have anything intelligent to say ahaha. Peace fellas
BTW : Im sure P-KELL COULD SNEAK THE commuter rail and the stadium money out his back poclet lol.

[someone123]

I dislike the idea of literally "bringing back the Dayliners" because people are talking about obsolete 1970s or older technology. Instead we should be looking at innovative transportation solutions that as of now don't even seem to be on the radar. It's kind of depressing.

[cormiermax]

I don't want some crappy old CN trains, I want this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duRXmALWHWc

[MalcolmTucker]

Would need to be FRA compliant, so most imports are out, except units such as this:
This is a Sumitomo Corp and Nippon Sharyo Inc FRA compliant DMU - $4.4 million for an articulated single unit (as part of a large order for Metrolinx (Toronto) and Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit (San Francisco Area))

Source:wiki

Only game in town right now.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I wonder if maybe the way to get the commuter rail started it to walk away from it and do something else, like a series of streetcar LRT systems for the Peninsula, Mainland Halifax and Dartmouth?

As much as I would love that, I think that the reality of politics in Halifax is such that it is easier to get suburban commuter rail first, rather than a downtown focussed LRT loop.

Even setting aside the fact that the current council set-up is such that if one region gets something all the others cry and 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 until either they all have a 1/2 arsed version of it or they kill it because if their ward can't have it too then no one should. That may slightly improve after shrinking council, but it won't fundamentally go away.

The real issue though is the fact that hating the peninsula and in particular claiming that "Halifax" gets everything and we get nothing is practically a sport in this city. I just don't see how it will fly at the council level because they feed off of the Evil Peninsula who take all the money vs Poor Hard Done By Suburbs.

Realistically that says to me that sub-urban commuter rail possibly could sell, whereas downtown focussed LRT loops would not. At this point I really don't even care all that much whether it is chicken or egg though (even if I do like your plan purely from a transit perspective), because if we start with a commuter line it will at least get rail transit on people's radar and then we can build from there.