Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[jlousa]

I won't bet my paycheque on it but my understanding is it's a water treatment pumping station where the captured water heads to after passing thru the contaminated mounds of soil that make up the neighbouring parks. The NEFC parks are lined under the contaminated soils and the water needs to be sent for treatment and can't be let to enter the storm water system. So if that is the case that building isn't going anywhere, at least not without being replaced.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Source: http://sunnvancouver.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/trafficplotting.jpg

I am not sure the numbers given in the above cited link are right...at least they don't match the CoV counting and in some case deviate from it very seriously.

here below are the number coming from CoV (click on the picture)



The link above doesn't say your conclusion is not valid, but it tempers it a bit.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

One thing I've noticed is that in almost all proposals this little building is gone.

Anyone know what it is? It's not a hydro building or skytrain substation according to on of my friends who worked for Hydro.

Is it a natural gas pumping station?

Not sure but there's a better image of it via Google Street View: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=bc+place&h...3,-365.718995125112,,0,5.582088635303194

(with regards to the fencing, keep in mind that this area was photographed by Google in 2009 - year before the Olympics)

[jlousa]

Great, now that the competition is over... The acutal report which was released to the city in Sept is liberated.

Lots of really good info in this document, it's almost 13mb. Highly recommend saving it just in case it dissappears.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/reconnect/pdf/viaductsstudy2011.pdf

Incredible traffic numbers, where from, where to. Some even surprising such as the amount of traffic leaving and returning during rush hours on the viaducts aren't all that far apart from those in the opposite direction. The evergreen line won't make any difference as there are very few people from the tri-cities using the viaducts, and only 4% of people continue on or from the Lions Gate so it's not thru traffic either. Another chart shows where the city expects future growth pop/com to land downtown, extremely interesting. I was surprised to see the number of bodies that are expected to be living north of Waterfront road...
I'll let the document speak for itself enjoy.

[Alex Mackinnon]

I've had that one since October 8th. I think it was posted on here a while ago.


I think the most serious jams seem to happen in the West bound counterflow. The problem is that vehicles can get on the Dunsmuir Viaduct faster than they get off, and once their up there, they're good and stuck. My bet as to why it's the worst on West counterflow is that the light timings lower the capacity of the Beatty/Dunsmuir intersection below the vehicle volumes coming onto the viaducts. In the morning, the lights are probably held a lot longer as it's the dominant direction of flow.

Take a look at my walkabout pics from when I was prepping my project. This is at about 6 PM. Total gridlock on the viaduct.





Pics are my own.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Vonny

I am not sure the numbers given in the above cited link are right...at least they don't match the CoV counting and in some case deviate from it very seriously.

here below are the number coming from CoV (click on the picture)



The link above doesn't say your conclusion is not valid, but it tempers it a bit.

Hey, I read your references for your traffic statements. Since your lane capacities seems really high, given the congestion we already know happens.

According to your own reference you seem to have overstated lane capacity. Vancouver has a tendency to have narrow roadways. Some lanes around here are under 3m wide.

As a base most downtown roads would fall in UAP3 or UAP4. I wouldn't say any of the main thoroughfares have lanes wider than 3.6m; so each lane would be between 750 vph to 1110 vph. Then theres a nerf factor to trucks and busses, probably about 100 vph.

If you're pessimistic, lane capacity could be as low as 650 vehicles per hour per lane in spots.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Great, now that the competition is over... The acutal report which was released to the city in Sept is liberated.

Lots of really good info in this document, it's almost 13mb. Highly recommend saving it just in case it dissappears.

As I read the report, it seems to suggest that there is little additional transit capacity (without significant additional facilities being added), but other roads have significant additional capacity to accommodate the traffic now going over the viaducts. However, the latter conclusion is based on observations made during the 2010 Olympics. IIRC, traffic was something like 30% down during that period. Seems odd to based a capacity assessment on a once in a lifetime event.

I'm not sure how this report can be used to support the conclusion that removal of the viaducts is a good idea.

[s211]

Originally Posted by IanS

As I read the report, it seems to suggest that there is little additional transit capacity (without significant additional facilities being added), but other roads have significant additional capacity to accommodate the traffic now going over the viaducts. However, the latter conclusion is based on observations made during the 2010 Olympics. IIRC, traffic was something like 30% down during that period. Seems odd to based a capacity assessment on a once in a lifetime event.

I'm not sure how this report can be used to support the conclusion that removal of the viaducts is a good idea.

Which I've said from day one. The data's cooked to support an erroneous conclusion.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

One thing I've noticed is that in almost all proposals this little building is gone.

Anyone know what it is? It's not a hydro building or skytrain substation according to on of my friends who worked for Hydro.

Is it a natural gas pumping station?

It's a pumping station for contaminated ground water.

There's a membrane barrier somewhere under the Concord parking lots at NEFC to prevent contaminated groundwater from leaching into False Creek. This pumping station pumps the ground water that collects behind the barrier into the sewage system for treatment at the applicable sewage treatment plant.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by IanS

As I read the report, it seems to suggest that there is little additional transit capacity (without significant additional facilities being added), but other roads have significant additional capacity to accommodate the traffic now going over the viaducts. However, the latter conclusion is based on observations made during the 2010 Olympics. IIRC, traffic was something like 30% down during that period. Seems odd to based a capacity assessment on a once in a lifetime event.

I'm not sure how this report can be used to support the conclusion that removal of the viaducts is a good idea.

See, thats a terrible idea. So we want to further clog roads such as hastings and Water street? Especially with the heavier truck traffic? And did this report take into account the reduction in capacity along these other roads when the tram is eventually built?? (going along Pacific and hastings).
And while the Beasley and Pals proposal has some nice elements, overall it is half cooked. Especially the raising of the skytrain guideway....fantasy! And that shows how seriously these proposals should be taken in their implementation in reality.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by s211

Which I've said from day one. The data's cooked to support an erroneous conclusion.

I don't think the data is cooked. I just don't think it supports the conclusion that removal of the viaducts is a good idea.

[Zassk]

I agree with Metro-One. We should be trying to reduce the traffic on Powell and Hastings, not increase it. Put more traffic on the viaducts! Shunt it all onto a Malkin Connector! This would improve the quality of life for the whole DTES and Strathcona. Removing the viaducts would do the opposite.

[hollywoodnorth]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I agree with Metro-One. We should be trying to reduce the traffic on Powell and Hastings, not increase it. Put more traffic on the viaducts! Shunt it all onto a Malkin Connector! This would improve the quality of life for the whole DTES and Strathcona. Removing the viaducts would do the opposite.

I fully agree. Meggs ... its time to wake up!

[logan5]

How about funneling traffic onto Pacific Blvd. It's already 45 feet wide, so if you eliminate parking and widen it by 5 feet then you have 5 lanes to deal with rush hour traffic. Combine that with a Kingsway connector and a Malkin connector that tie into Pacific Blvd, and that should keep traffic flowing. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to reconfigure surface streets to compensate for the loss of 1 km of viaduct. Do some people actually like the viaducts?

[officedweller]

Pacific is slated to be narrowed for the streetcar, plus its current traffic volumes do not reflect the future development of the Plaza of Nations and NEFC.

[jlousa]

The Kingsway connector has been nixed for good. Not only that but where will Pacific/Expo take you? To Nelson and all the traffic it carries with the Cambie bridge? Or keep on it and end up on the South end of Downtown instead of the North end and have to double all the way back?

Anyone going to the panel judging event tonight at Woodwards for the viaduct submissions. Believe it's at 7pm unfortunately I have a meeting across town.

[logan5]

The Kingsway connector has been nixed for good. Not only that but where will Pacific/Expo take you?

Ramps up to Dunsmuir/Georgia. And how can the Kingsway connector be nixed for good? The Mt. Pleasant Community Plan can prohibit the construction of a Kingsway connector forever? Little off topic, but how binding are these community plans?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by s211

Which I've said from day one. The data's cooked to support an erroneous conclusion.

Agreed. The statements regarding the viaducts usage during the Olympics was laughable. They act as if it was business as usual downtown during the Olympics and people were "adjusting" when in fact plenty of office towers were up to 50% empty (or even more) during the Olympics.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I agree with Metro-One. We should be trying to reduce the traffic on Powell and Hastings, not increase it. Put more traffic on the viaducts! Shunt it all onto a Malkin Connector! This would improve the quality of life for the whole DTES and Strathcona. Removing the viaducts would do the opposite.

Of course that's the dirty little secret lurking behind Harcourt & Co's backslapping over stopping freeways in Vancouver: residential streets overburdened with traffic. Forcing huge numbers of vehicles onto Pacific merely continues that grand tradition.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Who else showed up at the Woodwards event?

I'm kind of sad I didn't get a mention anywhere; but I think I got a big lesson out of it. Practical ideas aren't — and definitely don't sell well. I think I hit almost all the turf that the panel was looking for as far desirable traits/goals go; but I think I was conventional in what I think could be done.

Oh well, it was a good panel discussion at the end at least. I particularly thought Gordon Price did a good job at forcing some interesting discussion out of the panels.

My ladyfriend and I just about crapped a brick when Joe Hruda commented that there were "no inate qualities" to be had walking around the area of the viaducts, so he never had. He then commented that the view of driving into the city along Cambie is history and must be protected.

Admittedly we both walk quite a bit, but come on it's still one of the best neighbourhoods to walk around in the city. A couple of empty blocks bordered by walkable destinations still sees a lot of pedestrian traffic.

Stuff like this is atleast lighting the fire under our collective butts to try to get our blog off the ground. Perfect timing now that I may be rejoining the work force and having less time on my hands...