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  #3001  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
The destruction of these row houses on South St. marks a very bad day for Halifax. All buildings can be renovated and the cost of renovation is not an excuse for demolition. No one would ever argue that Historic Properties was a bad idea. We are losing heritage at an alarming rate and the replacement for that heritage in most cases is the second slap in the face.
This is my issue with some projects in Halifax: the loss of our history. Halifax has a unique architectural style that should be preserved. It's such a shame that those buildings will not doubt be replaced by something cheap and bland.

Before I'm labelled anti-growth: I'm no fan of Heritage Trust, I'm also no fan of developers who have no appreciation or respect of Halifax's history (especially developers like United Gulf ).
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  #3002  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 2:01 PM
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I feel Empire's wrath is misdirected. The cause of the loss was the fire. This week's events are just the last act of that event. The buildings were old and decrepit, as can be seen from the rear view. The front facades were the only thing of interest and value.

Halifax clings to the examples of heritage buildings he cites but does nothing to keep them viable and in good repair. The apartment house by the Gardens is a good example - mildly interesting architecturally but a run-down fire trap in reality. It needed to go about 50 years before it did. And yet when it finally did go, the only way it could happen was for the developer to agree to build a semi-replica of it, which, if you have ever been inside, is a terrible building that is full of compromises and should never have been built.

If Halifax is truly interested in preserving worthwhile heritage properties - the majority of which are just old, not of any particular heritage value - then they need to take meaningful steps to ensure that the owners keep them in good repair. If that means tax rebates or outright subsidies, let's have that debate.
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  #3003  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Here is a story about the fire that broke out in this building back on January 12, 2010 - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/01/12/ns-fire-south-street.html . The picture (below) is from the story. Another story indicated that the fire had spread to the second story floor joists - https://groups.google.com/group/hfx.general/browse_thread/thread/ce35c3f792e30221?hl=en.

Based on the story reports, it sounds as though the building would have required a complete rebuild (maybe the bricks could have been saved). Once a historic building is completely rebuilt then it doesn't maintain much of historic significance, it would just be a duplicate of a historic building (in my opinion).

Many old buildings are destroyed by fire because the construction is not up to today's standards. A building like this with multiple units, if built to modern standards, would have kept the fire contained to one unit because of modern fire wall construction that is intented for that purpose.

-----------------------------------------------------

Restoring a building lies with the will of the developer and the council of the day. All of the structures that fall into the category of these row houses potentially can be wiped out by any hosts of excuses.

In terms of renovating, any building can be restored. Here is a link for the restoration of St . George's round church on Brunswick St. that was over 75% destroyed by fire.
http://www.timberhart.com/pages/timberframersstgeorgesanglican.html

In this case you had an owner with the will to make it happen. No one disagrees that it is more economical to demolish a building and start over. This has been the practice in Halifax for the most part for the last forty years. Halifax has/had some very unique architecture and it is a feature that makes it a great city even for the people who don't appreciate it. Someone has to start recognising the importance of the architecture we have and this casual attitude of let's get rid of it because it's not up to code needs some rework. The common issue I hear for vacant buildings is that they are unsafe and homeless people are living in them. Ironically the homeless people are no doubt safer in a vacant building than on the street. The cry comes from developers who want to demolish the building instead of preserving it and seems to find great acceptance with our city planning machine.

Here are a few lost in the last couple of years....Photos by Empire:











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Last edited by Empire; Nov 27, 2011 at 3:24 PM.
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  #3004  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 2:30 PM
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I am particularly angered by the loss of this. It served as an interesting connection between Historic Properties and Barrington Place. The fact that it is currently just a vacant lot adds considerable insult to injury!
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  #3005  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 2:51 PM
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This is very sad indeed. It does not appear as if they are trying to salvage any part of them. I hope whatever is built there pays homage to them as they were a lovely part of that neighborhood.
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  #3006  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 5:32 PM
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I am particularly angered by the loss of this. It served as an interesting connection between Historic Properties and Barrington Place. The fact that it is currently just a vacant lot adds considerable insult to injury!
Yep. To say Waterside Centre hasn't really paid off is an understatement at this point. I only hope that they'll proceed soon since it's really terrible to have that block sitting there destroyed. There just doesn't seem to be the demand in the Downtown office market, which is of course a structural and incentive problem rather than a problem with the Halifax economy (all the demand in the world in the burbs). Maybe they should look at modifying the project to residential. Downtown needs more people at this point more than it needs office.
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  #3007  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 5:38 PM
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  #3008  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
-----------------------------------------------------

Restoring a building lies with the will of the developer and the council of the day. All of the structures that fall into the category of these row houses potentially can be wiped out by any hosts of excuses.

In terms of renovating, any building can be restored. Here is a link for the restoration of St . George's round church on Brunswick St. that was over 75% destroyed by fire.
http://www.timberhart.com/pages/timberframersstgeorgesanglican.html

In this case you had an owner with the will to make it happen. No one disagrees that it is more economical to demolish a building and start over. This has been the practice in Halifax for the most part for the last forty years. Halifax has/had some very unique architecture and it is a feature that makes it a great city even for the people who don't appreciate it. Someone has to start recognising the importance of the architecture we have and this casual attitude of let's get rid of it because it's not up to code needs some rework. The common issue I hear for vacant buildings is that they are unsafe and homeless people are living in them. Ironically the homeless people are no doubt safer in a vacant building than on the street. The cry comes from developers who want to demolish the building instead of preserving it and seems to find great acceptance with our city planning machine.
Nobody said to destroy buildings because they are not up to code, I said that many of these building are destroyed by fire because they aren't built to current fire codes. This is more a question of technology not ideology.

Personally, I think there are many buildings that have been lost over the years that should have been kept. Many publicly owned buildings could have been kept and maintained. For example, the Public Gardens Skating Rink built around 1860; if it had been kept then it would be a great attraction - the oldest covered skating rink in Canada. However, 100 - 120 years ago when it was demolished, residents probably just considered it to be an old, unattractive building.

There have to be very appealing tax incentives in order for people to buy and maintain old homes. I lived in and owned a 1930's home and the electrical wiring was inadequate, the single washroom was inadequate, it was poorly insulated, and the basement wall had severe efflorescence. I spent many hours of work fixing it up and lost money when I sold it.

The owners of these old homes are the ones who have to keep them maintained and bring them up to fire safety codes so they won't burn down or simply fall apart from old age. Since any owner will likely lose money on the restoration, how do you find enough owners who like old homes enough that they will fix them up and then probably lose money when they sell them?
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  #3009  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
The destruction of these row houses on South St. marks a very bad day for Halifax. All buildings can be renovated and the cost of renovation is not an excuse for demolition. No one would ever argue that Historic Properties was a bad idea. We are losing heritage at an alarming rate and the replacement for that heritage in most cases is the second slap in the face.

Photo of rowhouses by Empire..........................................................Bland ugly Prince George pic by Google


Here is an example of duplicated heritage on Summer St. This building was 100% demolished and rebuilt exactly as it was..
Not the original but much better than the Prince George cheap replacement.
It wasn't 100% destroyed. There was a requirement to maintain the 'facade". They kept the thickness of a board, about one inch, and built on this. It was something to see. On the outside, I'm glad that they rebuilt it as it looked before, but it's not even a shell, just one side of a shell.
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  #3010  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
If Halifax is truly interested in preserving worthwhile heritage properties - the majority of which are just old, not of any particular heritage value - then they need to take meaningful steps to ensure that the owners keep them in good repair. If that means tax rebates or outright subsidies, let's have that debate.
It seems like the root problem here is that these buildings are not kept in reasonable shape. Another problem is that there is not much faith that developers will build good replacements. If the newer buildings were nicer I don't think we'd get as many complaints, but they're not. Typically they're built with cheap materials and are poorly designed.

I wouldn't have had a problem with South Street if they'd retained the facades or done something interesting with the brick. My biggest worry is that this site will either sit empty for a decade or will end up with a very low quality building.

The city is mostly asleep at the switch when it comes to heritage. If we want these buildings the public needs to pay to make up for the fact that they're less commercially viable. Halifax's main heritage program right now amounts to allowing property owners to volunteer to give up rights to modify or demolish their property, which just makes heritage buildings even less attractive. When they wanted to strengthen the legislation they argued for a 2 year wait for demolition permits. Unfortunately I don't think many members of the heritage crowd have a good grasp of economics.
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  #3011  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 8:01 PM
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Whats the plan for the site now that the rowhouses have been demolished?
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  #3012  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 8:09 PM
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Whats the plan for the site now that the rowhouses have been demolished?
Build something cheap and ugly in 6 or 8 years.
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  #3013  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 8:29 PM
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Build something cheap and ugly in 6 or 8 years.
Seriously? Theres no plan too start developing the site sooner? Whos in charge of all this?
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  #3014  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 8:42 PM
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Seriously? Theres no plan too start developing the site sooner? Whos in charge of all this?
Yes there are plans to redevelop this property with a mixed use multilevel building that would be under 22 meters in height. (source: allnovascotia.com - May 4th, 2011). The owner is Galaxy Properties and they have been consulting with WM Fares Group.

One hold-up is that it was restricted to 13 meters in HRM_by_Design. It was brought up in HRM Council on May 3rd, 2011 by Councillor Sloane who supports the increase in height - http://www.halifax.ca/council/documents/c110503.pdf (page 12).

I am not sure if the height limit has been increased.
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  #3015  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 8:47 PM
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Yes there are plans to redevelop this property with a mixed use multilevel building that would be under 22 meters in height. (source: allnovascotia.com - May 4th, 2011). The owner is Galaxy Properties and they have been consulting with WM Fares Group.

One hold-up is that it was restricted to 13 meters in HRM_by_Design. It was brought up in HRM Council on May 3rd, 2011 by Councillor Sloane who supports the increase in height - http://www.halifax.ca/council/documents/c110503.pdf (page 12).

I am not sure if the height limit has been increased.
Lets hope that this development will be of the same quality as the Vic, and not what went up in the area in the 1990's. What a huge loss that would be.
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  #3016  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 9:16 PM
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One hold-up is that it was restricted to 13 meters in HRM_by_Design.
Height actually represents an opportunity to promote heritage development. Imagine if the city went to the owners of this property and said they could normally only go to 13 meters, but they could put up a 16 storey residential tower if they restored the rowhouses in front. That would almost certainly be a good deal for the developer and it would be better for the city.

Unfortunately the combined heritage/NIMBY lobbying tends to give us the opposite "worst of both worlds" type of scenario where there's zero financial incentive to preserve most properties and development is slowed down by red tape.
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  #3017  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 10:05 PM
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Build something cheap and ugly in 6 or 8 years.
That's better than having ugly facades looming over a dead block and keeping it that way for 20 years as is the case on Barrington St with the burned-out shell of the NFB building.
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  #3018  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 11:56 PM
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That's better than having ugly facades looming over a dead block and keeping it that way for 20 years as is the case on Barrington St with the burned-out shell of the NFB building.
Would you trash this building if there was a fire in the kitchen? Maybe build some trash Chedraw 4 storey edifice?

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  #3019  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 12:00 AM
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Would you trash this building if there was a fire in the kitchen? Maybe build some trash Chedraw 4 storey edifice?

And to think Halifax was once filled with buildings like that. If only we kept them, I would say Halifax would rival Quebec City for its European historic feel.
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  #3020  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 12:03 AM
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Height actually represents an opportunity to promote heritage development. Imagine if the city went to the owners of this property and said they could normally only go to 13 meters, but they could put up a 16 storey residential tower if they restored the rowhouses in front. That would almost certainly be a good deal for the developer and it would be better for the city.

Unfortunately the combined heritage/NIMBY lobbying tends to give us the opposite "worst of both worlds" type of scenario where there's zero financial incentive to preserve most properties and development is slowed down by red tape.
This is exactly what is needed. Instead of major tax concessions allow height bonusing. There is no other way. Look at Montreal, there are many tall structures that incorporate 2-4 storey historic buildings...it has to happen here!!
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