Halifax Stadium Discussion

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Why would anybody drive from Halifax to Moncton for games?

Because they love football. Not everyone identifies so strictly to the city they live in. I live in Toronto and love it, yet root for the Ti-Cats. Hamilton for me is a better football city, with football fans, a better stadium for football, and a better football team.

I doubt people passionate about football in Halifax are going to boycott just because the team isn't within city limits. Of course they'd prefer the team to be Halifax based, but in the end football comes first.

I doubt people in Boston would boycott the Patriots if they moved to Rhode Island, Connecticut, or New Hampshire. Devotion is to the team.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Because they love football. Not everyone identifies so strictly to the city they live in. I live in Toronto and love it, yet root for the Ti-Cats. Hamilton for me is a better football city, with football fans, a better stadium for football, and a better football team.

I doubt people passionate about football in Halifax are going to boycott just because the team isn't within city limits. Of course they'd prefer the team to be Halifax based, but in the end football comes first.

I doubt people in Boston would boycott the Patriots if they moved to Rhode Island, Connecticut, or New Hampshire. Devotion is to the team.

I don't know that there are enough people in Halifax who are such die hard football fans that they would drive 2 and a half hours too Moncton for each game. The only reason the CFL would do well in Halifax is because there are enough people within a close vicinity who are casual football fans, sport fans in general or are just looking for new forms of entertainment. Moncton doesn't have that.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

I don't know that there are enough people in Halifax who are such die hard football fans that they would drive 2 and a half hours too Moncton for each game. The only reason the CFL would do well in Halifax is because there are enough people within a close vicinity who are casual football fans, sport fans in general or are just looking for new forms of entertainment. Moncton doesn't have that.

Perhaps. I've travelled by bus to another city to sit in a -15C blizzard for 3 hours to watch 2 teams I have no connection with by myself! So, I suppose I'm not representative of a typical Halifax football fan. Oh yeah, it wasn't even pro football, it was college.

Long term, the success of any CFL franchise rests on cultivating a solid 20,000+ solid die hard fans that will stick to their team through thick and thin and -15C blizzards. Everything above 20,000 is gravy.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Perhaps. I've travelled by bus to another city to sit in a -15C blizzard for 3 hours to watch 2 teams I have no connection with by myself. So, I suppose I'm not representative of a typical Halifax football fan. Oh yeah, it wasn't even pro football, it was college.

Haha right, but as you said you are a bit of a rarity, driving 2 and a half hours and needing a hotel room just isn't practical for most people when they don't even really care for the sport, and even if they did you would have too be a massive fan too make the trek for each game. Now if it was only a 20 minute drive (Maybe 30 in rush-hour) it becomes much more practical for fans and non fans alike.

[isaidso]

How many die hards do you think there are in Halifax? In Nova Scotia? In the Maritimes?

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by isaidso

How many die hards do you think there are in Halifax? In Nova Scotia? In the Maritimes?

I have no idea, but I really don't think there are enough to support a team in Moncton.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

I have no idea, but I really don't think there are enough to support a team in Moncton.

My gosh, of course there are enough fans, even Haligonian, to support a team in Moncton. Even truer to the point: I'm confident there are enough fans even in the town of Truro. Regardless that Truro is a football town, to a true football fan, driving a couple hours is nothing. Let's be real: there are already many people from Halifax that venture to Moncton once, sometimes twice a year for non-football reasons! The concerts, the theme parks, the culture...

Come to think of how interconnected Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are: I would be fascinated to know how much of the population from both provinces actually manages to stay away from the other... I would bet it is fairly minor.

That being said, Halifax is the stronger business case because of the larger source of ticket holders. The first CFL team in Atlantic Canada needs to be a success, so the second may eventually follow.

[Josh M]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Because they love football. Not everyone identifies so strictly to the city they live in. I live in Toronto and love it, yet root for the Ti-Cats. Hamilton for me is a better football city, with football fans, a better stadium for football, and a better football team.

I doubt people passionate about football in Halifax are going to boycott just because the team isn't within city limits. Of course they'd prefer the team to be Halifax based, but in the end football comes first.

I doubt people in Boston would boycott the Patriots if they moved to Rhode Island, Connecticut, or New Hampshire. Devotion is to the team.

You realize there are over 14 million people in New England, and the Pats are in the NFL. You live in Toronto a city of 2.5 million and they can't even fill a CFL game. If Moncton got a CFL team, they would have to rely on surrounding areas for support for every game, and the reason that the Pats are in Foxborough is because it makes sense, the same reason you wouldn't put a team Moncton.

[c-way-dude]

The reason the Patriots are in Foxborough is that they could not get any help in building a stadium in Boston. The Patriots started out as the Boston Patriots in the AFL. In the late '60's/early '70's they tried to get a new stadium built in Boston, but failed. They moved to Foxborough, and took the name New England. Around the year 2000, they again tried to get help from Boston in an effort to get a new stadium built within the city. The NFL even offered to grant Boston the opportunity to host a Super Bowl if the city had built a domed stadium. The city declined again, leaving Gillette Stadium to be built next to the old stadium in Foxborough.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

My gosh, of course there are enough fans, even Haligonian, to support a team in Moncton. Even truer to the point: I'm confident there are enough fans even in the town of Truro. Regardless that Truro is a football town, to a true football fan, driving a couple hours is nothing. Let's be real: there are already many people from Halifax that venture to Moncton once, sometimes twice a year for non-football reasons! The concerts, the theme parks, the culture...

Come to think of how interconnected Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are: I would be fascinated to know how much of the population from both provinces actually manages to stay away from the other... I would bet it is fairly minor.

That being said, Halifax is the stronger business case because of the larger source of ticket holders. The first CFL team in Atlantic Canada needs to be a success, so the second may eventually follow.

You seriously think there are enough major football fans in Halifax too drive all the way too Moncton for every game? I think you'd be surprised.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by Josh M

You realize there are over 14 million people in New England, and the Pats are in the NFL. You live in Toronto a city of 2.5 million and they can't even fill a CFL game. If Moncton got a CFL team, they would have to rely on surrounding areas for support for every game, and the reason that the Pats are in Foxborough is because it makes sense, the same reason you wouldn't put a team Moncton.

Not to mention that this is Canada where there is only a percentage of football fans within the population compared too the United States.

[Empire]

Most of the fan base for an Atlantic CFL team will come from pride of ownership. The city that hosts th team will be responsible for supplying the fans. Any buisnes case will show you that that is Halifax. The long term benifits of locating in Halifax far outweigh Moncton.

This Moncton grographic centre is hogwash when you are talking about 2-3.5hr drives. Most of these "fans" will have to return home because there are no hotel rooms in Moncton and no developer will build hotel rooms to service a mild upswing for less tan 10 hotel nights a year.

[RyeJay]

The geographic centre isn't hogwash. Moncton is correct.

This argument, to be fair, applied to Halifax shows us even more that a team in Halifax is the smarter choice.

I'm confident that Moncton could support a team; however, a 2-3.5 hour drive radius from the city of Halifax is within proximity to many, many more people than Moncton's centrist location.

The South Shore, Annapolis Valley, Truro area, Cape Breton, etc...

[MonctonRad]

And within two hours of Moncton you have Saint John, Fredericton and Charlottetown, all significant urban populations in their own right.....

I posted this in the CFL in the Maritimes thread, to try and deflect this discussion over there - but what the hell......

These two comments are by isaidso, posted in the Halifax Stadium thread. I decided to respond to them here because I thought this was the more appropriate venue and I didn't want to hijeck the Halifax thread any more than it already was.

I lived in Halifax for nearly a decade and Halifax is a football town but the only time I ever saw the passion for football displayed by the town was during the regular Atlantic (Uteck) Bowls. The rest of the time, it wasn't nearly so evident.

I've now lived in Moncton for more than 20 years and I would have to say that the raw passion for the game is more present here than in Halifax. High school football is big here. Regular games routinely get about 1,500 people out. The provincial championship game (that my son's team won) had 4,500 in attendance and was standing room only at Rocky Stone Field. Moncton Minor Football has about 2,000 participants and all six city high schools have varsity teams.

Unfortunately, Mount Allison University football is not so well supported, rarely getting more than 2,000 people to come out to watch. This could be because:
1- the university is 30 minutes away.
2- the team has only had one winning season in the last decade and didn't win a game this year.
3- Mt A does not have a proper stadium.

Just how many diehard fans are there in Moncton? That's somewhat hard to say but it would be valid I think to state that probably 2/3rds of the 20,000 plus people that attended the two Touchdown Atlantic games were from the local area.

Given this, there are probably at least 15,000 locals willing to attend professional football games. That figure could grow given fan loyalty to a home team, rather than carpetbagging teams coming in for a one-off game.

But would these people actually buy seasons tickets? Would out of towners buy seasons tickets to a Moncton based team?

The beauty of football over hockey is that there is less of a time commitment necessary to be an ardent team supporter. There are 41 home games per year for an NHL team. There are only 9 home games per year in the CFL. The stadium only needs to be filled every second weekend. That's a lot easier to do than every third night like in the NHL. The seasons tickets for the CFL are also considerably cheaper than the NHL.

The CFL therefore is considerably friendlier to a small market situation than the NHL would be. Tickets are cheaper, and the fan base would likely stretch further into the hinterland than it would for a hockey team because fans would only have to travel every second weekend to a game.

My guess is that there might potentially be 8,000 season ticket holders in metro Moncton, with at least an equal number of fans who would frequently (5-6x per year) attend games. This is not enough to support a team and the viabilty of the franchise would depend on casual local fans and out-of-towners.

Is this enough for a franchise? I don't know, but I do know that the hard core support for a Moncton franchise is probably similar to what it would be in Halifax. The difference would be in engaging the interest of casual spectators and getting support from out of town. Halifax is certainly a mecca for regional travel, but Moncton is also a popular destination and a recent report quoted in the Moncton thread mentioned that in 2010, the growth in hotel room rentals in greater Moncton was higher than any other small to medium sized city in eastern Canada, even Quebec City!

The jury therefore is still out. Both Moncton and Halifax are football towns, but I think Moncton is more passionate. Halifax is larger and more prosperous but Moncton is more central and every bit as much of a regional destination. This will continue to be an interestimg story to watch unfold.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

The geographic centre isn't hogwash. Moncton is correct.

This argument, to be fair, applied to Halifax shows us even more that a team in Halifax is the smarter choice.

I'm confident that Moncton could support a team; however, a 2-3.5 hour drive radius from the city of Halifax is within proximity to many, many more people than Moncton's centrist location.

The South Shore, Annapolis Valley, Truro area, Cape Breton, etc...

Along with this, i'm sure there are people from southern NB who would still be willing to drive to Halifax for games, even given the three hour drive that it is from Saint John. Moncton would be much better for those living in Saint John, obviously, but i'm sure there would be some who would still quite readily travel to Halifax.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And within two hours of Moncton you have Saint John, Fredericton and Charlottetown, all significant urban populations in their own right.....

Yes. All in their own right, of being smaller than Halifax.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Along with this, i'm sure there are people from southern NB who would still be willing to drive to Halifax for games, even given the three hour drive that it is from Saint John. Moncton would be much better for those living in Saint John, obviously, but i'm sure there would be some who would still quite readily travel to Halifax.

I have friends in Saint John, even a former roommate, who groan at the notion of all that driving.... Saint John to Halifax is much less a pain in the ass via ferry, across the Bay of Fundy. Increased ferry service is actually something that may be expanded once Nova Scotia's economy is showing its expected growth.

At some point, even the Yarmouth ferry connection with Maine could be in service once again. For Yarmouth's sake, I hope this is the case; although, I'm of the opinion that Maine should not be the state to which the ferry connections.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I have friends in Saint John, even a former roommate, who groan at the notion of all that driving.... Saint John to Halifax is much less a pain in the ass via ferry, across the Bay of Fundy. Increased ferry service is actually something that may be expanded once Nova Scotia's economy is showing its expected growth.

I'm surprised. I don't consider a three hour drive all that bad. It's a decently long drive of course, but it's much shorter than driving to other major cities. I'm not a fan of the CFL at all, but if there were an NHL team in Halifax I would definitely drive for games. Not all of them, but a few.

I agree on the ferry situation altogether. Where would you prefer the Yarmouth ferry connect to if not Bar Harbor? Portsmouth? Boston?

[Jstaleness]

I feel the worst for the people of Charlottetown and PEI in general. If they want to see a game they have to pay that damn bridge fare. It doesn't matter if the team is in Halifax or Moncton.

[fenwick16]

The image below was presented at the 3rd and 4th public consultations on November 16th and November 17th. It was stated to be 7,000 permanent seats on each side (14,000 total). I think it is a big step in the right direction, although I would prefer 10,000 permanent seats on each side (between the goal-lines) for a total of 20,000 permanent seats.