High Speed Rail in Canada - Page 19

eemy · #**361** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 2:21 AM**

The EcoTrain report estimates a time saving of about 1.5 hours over the existing trip for Montreal-Toronto at 200mph, and 2.5 hours at 300mph, both options routing through Ottawa.

Wharn · #**362** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 7:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

go for it! considering the Eglington subway is 9 billion, why not spend 11 billion on a link that assists 10 million people rather than 500,000? (plus i cant wait to be able to get to Montreal in 2 hours)

Who are these 10 million people? Do they all take the train, or like most North Americans, do 80% of them travel by car? Most importantly, are they daily commuters? Probably not.

I'd much rather see this $11 billion invested in urban infrastructure projects, particularly for Ontario's smaller cities since they never seem to get anything (and for Montreal since it probably has a $4.7 trillion repair backlog). Personally I think you'd get a much higher return on investment in terms of economic benefits, as you'd be reducing urban congestion- a real problem that imposes real externalities on society- rather than trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

bikegypsy · #**363** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 8:10 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by north 42

Ottawa is close enough to Montreal that it really doesn't even really need to have a line going directly into the city.

That's absurd

Taeolas · #**364** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 11:17 AM**

I'd dare say that Ottawa's closeness to Montreal makes it imperative that they have a High speed link. It would make it more desireably to the commuters. Between the two cities, you're looking at 3-4 million people that can start intermingling more closely.

Razor · #**365** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 12:02 PM**

Do I take my car and maybe spend $50.00 in gas and parking for a return trip to Montreal?", or do I spend the $150 (each person)on a train ticket to Montreal from Ottawa?

I'm not bashing it, but like i mentioned before, Montreal to Ottawa is pretty hassleless, and I don't think a need between a fast commute betwen these two cities is there. Would more people work in one city and live in another? A line could be justified betweenToronto Montreal or QC - Montreal maybe...I agree maybe a link from Kingston to Ottawa, to keep the train from having to stop.Judging by the relatively easy flowing high way traffic between ottawa and Montreal, i don't think there is a need.From what i experienced there isn't a l ot of congestion, at least not on the Ontario side on the #417.

Kitchissippi · #**366** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 1:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Do I take my car and maybe spend $50.00 in gas and parking for a return trip to Montreal?", or do I spend the $150 (each person)on a train ticket to Montreal from Ottawa?

I'm not bashing it, but like i mentioned before, Montreal to Ottawa is pretty hassleless, and I don't think a need between a fast commute betwen these two cities is there. Would more people work in one city and live in another? A line could be justified betweenToronto Montreal or QC - Montreal maybe...I agree maybe a link from Kingston to Ottawa, to keep the train from having to stop.Judging by the relatively easy flowing high way traffic between ottawa and Montreal, i don't think there is a need.From what i experienced there isn't a l ot of congestion, at least not on the Ontario side on the #417.

Building an HSR line between Toronto and Montreal would probably cost the same whether or not it passes by Ottawa. Why would you bypass the fourth largest metropolitan area and the federal capital on purpose?

jmt18325 · #**367** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 1:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Why would you bypass the fourth largest metropolitan area

Fifth.

Acajack · #**368** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 1:55 PM**

Ottawa is a still a large metro that it would be foolish to bypass given that it is not that big a detour to go into it.

It's not only a question of relieving congestion between cities (at least not in the case of Ottawa-Montreal), but also a question of potential users for the line. Via Rail off the top of my head runs about 8 trains a day between Ottawa and Montreal in either direction, so obviously not everyone drives. Plus there are flights, and Voyageur (Greyhound) buses.

As well, we have mostly talked about Ott-Mtl but Ottawa-Toronto is also a major trip generator.

MolsonExport · #**369** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 1:59 PM**

Fifth? How about a Montreal-->Calgary-->Toronto line?

jmt18325 · #**370** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 2:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ottawa is a still a large metro that it would be foolish to bypass given that it is not that big a detour to go into it.

I agree. Ottawa and Montreal are two of my favourite Canadian Cities (along with Quebec). I was simply pointing out that Calgary has passed Ottawa in terms of CMA population.

Jamaican-Phoenix · #**371** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 2:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Fifth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325

I agree. Ottawa and Montreal are two of my favourite Canadian Cities (along with Quebec). I was simply pointing out that Calgary has passed Ottawa in terms of CMA population.

Since when? According to the last available census (2006), Ottawa-Gatineau is still ahead of Calgary.

Aylmer · #**372** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 3:41 PM**

Lets avoid this can of worms and just say that Ottawa is in the millionaire club.

Moving on,

I think that skipping Ottawa would be foolish, considering that it's only 107 km's difference and 1.5 million potential riders more. A half hour extra wouldn't dissuade anyone from taking HSR, but having to drive 200km to the nearest station probably would.

north 42 · #**373** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 3:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Isn't this rather contradictory logic? Ottawa is further away from Montreal than Windsor from London and Ottawa is about 5 times the size compared to Windsor. Ottawa is the third most important destination on a Ontario-Quebec high speed rail network. HSR will not be successful if it reaches Windsor before Ottawa. Ottawans will not travel to Windsor Station in Montreal to use HSR.

Windsor-Essex has just under 400,000 people, so Ottawa is actually less than 3 times the size, not 5 times, unless Ottawa grew to 2,000,000 over night. We have all the US midwest to hook up to, what do you have past Ottawa? Not much in terms of population. Ottawa should be added after a connection to the US midwest is done.

Not to say Ottawa isn't important, it's just not as big as Chicago and Detroit.

Acajack · #**374** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 4:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by north 42

Windsor-Essex has just under 400,000 people, so Ottawa is actually less than 3 times the size, not 5 times, unless Ottawa grew to 2,000,000 over night. We have all the US midwest to hook up to, what do you have past Ottawa? Not much in terms of population. Ottawa should be added after a connection to the US midwest is done.

Not to say Ottawa isn't important, it's just not as big as Chicago and Detroit.

Not to nitpick but if you are going to pick all of Windsor-Essex as a reference marker (instead of Windsor's metro which has 75,000 fewer people), you have do the same for Ottawa-Gatineau and not just limit yourself to the metro which has roughly 1.2 million people. Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec combined around Ottawa are actually pushing 2 million people. Not quite there but not quite far either.

Granted, it's not as much as Metro Detroit or Chicago, but just because there is that big population across the border does not mean that proportional travel patterns automatically follow. Domestic travel numbers are always much higher than international even if there are close ties like between Canada and U.S.

Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto travel numbers are a lot higher than Toronto-Detroit or Toronto-Chicago. The latter are busy (especially Chicago) it is true, just not as much as Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

Plus, Chicago is more than twice the distance to Montreal, and HSR loses its competitiveness with air travel the further distance you go. Whereas Montreal-Toronto is pretty much the ideal distance for HSR to compete with air.

MolsonExport · #**375** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 5:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Since when? According to the last available census (2006), Ottawa-Gatineau is still ahead of Calgary.

According to this Table http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo05a-eng.htm, Calg trumps OttGat

Deez · #**376** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 6:18 PM**

Delete

Mister F · #**377** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 11:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

As well, we have mostly talked about Ott-Mtl but Ottawa-Toronto is also a major trip generator.

It sure is. I think there are almost as many people travelling from Toronto to Ottawa as there are from Toronto to Montreal. Ottawa may not be as big as Montreal but it generates more than its share of trips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I think that skipping Ottawa would be foolish, considering that it's only 107 km's difference and 1.5 million potential riders more. A half hour extra wouldn't dissuade anyone from taking HSR, but having to drive 200km to the nearest station probably would.

It's a shorter than you think - 80 km tops. Remember that the 416 isn't the most direct route to Ottawa. Taking Highway 7 or 15 is shorter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by north 42

Windsor-Essex has just under 400,000 people, so Ottawa is actually less than 3 times the size, not 5 times, unless Ottawa grew to 2,000,000 over night. We have all the US midwest to hook up to, what do you have past Ottawa?

Um...a little town you may have heard of called Montreal? Ottawa is, for all intents and purposes, on the way. You don't bypass a big city and an even bigger trip generator just to save 80 km. The Spanish HSR doesn't skip Zaragoza, the Italian one doesn't skip Bologna, etc. I do agree though that ignoring the Midwest, especially Detroit, was shortsighted at best. There were a lot of shortsighted assumptions in the study that minimized ridership and inflated costs. Stuff like putting overpasses at every rural dirt road and not serving airports. Someone on UT said it best - it looks like this study was designed to be put on a shelf.

eemy · #**378** Posted **Nov 17, 2011, 11:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F

There were a lot of shortsighted assumptions in the study that minimized ridership and inflated costs. Stuff like putting overpasses at every rural dirt road and not serving airports. Someone on UT said it best - it looks like this study was designed to be put on a shelf.

It does discuss airport service in the report which is why Trudeau is one of the proposed stations. I'd have to double check, but I think the UPRL was basically the rationale for not connecting to Pearson - I believe a connection was considered in the earlier study that the EcoTrain one is based on.

Did they really plan overpasses for dirt roads? Wouldn't it just be easier to terminate the road on either side?

albertantraingeek · #**379** Posted **Nov 18, 2011, 1:12 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Since when? According to the last available census (2006), Ottawa-Gatineau is still ahead of Calgary.

2006 was five years ago >___> The new one confirms it, Calgary is #4, ahead of Ottawa by just a smidgen.
***
I for one think skipping ottawa would be disgraceful to the country as a whole, considering it IS the nation's capital, & Im not just saying that. I think it would be quite beneficiary to the corridor to have the line pass through Ottawa.

Jamaican-Phoenix · #**380** Posted **Nov 18, 2011, 1:43 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by albertantraingeek

2006 was five years ago >___> The new one confirms it, Calgary is #4, ahead of Ottawa by just a smidgen.
***

True, but 2006 was the last census info I could find that was available. Good on Calgary for continuing to grow.