Calgary Public Transit II

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by freeweed

No one cares when a train is LEAVING.

I would disagree with you here, the departure time is the only relevant information. Personally, I don't care when a train arrives at a station, just as I don't care when the previous flight arrived at the airport, or when the previous sailing docked for the ferry. I only care when I will be leaving, and that's the information I need/want.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by SubwayRev

I would disagree with you here, the departure time is the only relevant information. Personally, I don't care when a train arrives at a station, just as I don't care when the previous flight arrived at the airport, or when the previous sailing docked for the ferry. I only care when I will be leaving, and that's the information I need/want.

Isn't this sort of a moot point since the arrival/leaving times will be within 20 seconds of each other?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Isn't this sort of a moot point since the arrival/leaving times will be within 20 seconds of each other?

Except at terminus stations, which is what is being debated here.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by SubwayRev

I would disagree with you here, the departure time is the only relevant information. Personally, I don't care when a train arrives at a station, just as I don't care when the previous flight arrived at the airport, or when the previous sailing docked for the ferry. I only care when I will be leaving, and that's the information I need/want.

I guess I just don't see why this is a concern. Knowing the departure time can in no way influence your behaviour or help you make a decision. It's not like you're going to choose to board or not based on that. You're already there, and if any timing is important you're in a hurry to get somewhere. So you'll always board the first train.

Arrival times at least give you an idea of whether or not to stand around indoors, take the train sitting there or wait for the next one, etc. But I just don't see what knowing a departure time gets you. It's the same thing as looking at a schedule (which I hope you've already done if you're making connections). I used to live at a timing point on a bus route (ie: where the bus sits for a random amount of time) and I can't remember ever caring when it left. I only wanted to know how much longer I had to stand outside in the cold/rain. It left on schedule every time.

As for the airport, I don't think I understand - obviously you don't care when the PREVIOUS flight arrived, but trust me: every flier I know damn well cares when THEIR flight has arrived. Because that dictates whether or not you need to start going through security, get ready for boarding, etc. You've already committed to a departure time so it's not like knowing about a change in that matters all that much. You still have to be there assuming it's on time - but if your flight has not arrived yet, you still have time to hit the head, sit in the lounge for another drink, or what have you.

Different priorities, I guess.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I guess I just don't see why this is a concern. Knowing the departure time can in no way influence your behaviour or help you make a decision. It's not like you're going to choose to board or not based on that. You're already there, and if any timing is important you're in a hurry to get somewhere. So you'll always board the first train.

Arrival times at least give you an idea of whether or not to stand around indoors, take the train sitting there or wait for the next one, etc. But I just don't see what knowing a departure time gets you. It's the same thing as looking at a schedule (which I hope you've already done if you're making connections). I used to live at a timing point on a bus route (ie: where the bus sits for a random amount of time) and I can't remember ever caring when it left. I only wanted to know how much longer I had to stand outside in the cold/rain. It left on schedule every time.

Knowing the departure time tells you as you approach the station whether you have to rush for the train or not, and whether you have to jump on at the first doors or whether you have a couple of minutes to walk to the less-crowded middle.

Why would you stand around indoors or wait for another train if there's a train already sitting there at a terminal? And why provide any information, if people are going to have to refer to schedules?

And, of course, the answer to how long you have to stand outside in the rain at a C-train station is 0 minutes, since they all have shelters.

Really, there are three possible states at a terminal station, each of which has their own most important information:
If there are two trains: Which one leaves first?
If there is one train: When does this train leave?
If there are no trains: When does the next train arrive, so I can get on?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

And, of course, the answer to how long you have to stand outside in the rain at a C-train station is 0 minutes, since they all have shelters.

Logic says this, granted. People's behaviour is vastly different. The terminal stations see the effect of people cramming inside during inclement weather, only to dash outside in a mad rush as soon as an empty train shows up.

Really, there are three possible states at a terminal station, each of which has their own most important information:
If there are two trains: Which one leaves first?
If there is one train: When does this train leave?
If there are no trains: When does the next train arrive, so I can get on?

1. Pretty much always, it's the emptier train. You can easily spot those in a rush vs those who want a seat more than getting to work 5 minutes earlier.

2. More people seem to do a quick mental check of "hmm, it looks full, do I stand or do I chance it waiting for the next one to arrive". But yeah, I'll give you this one as being on the fence.

3. Bingo. Do I stand outside for 2 minutes in -20 because it's coming shortly, or do I crowd the station with 100 other people because it may be another 5+ minutes?

I do a lot of people watching (I'm almost never in a rush and will gladly wait for a seat) so I'm just relaying what people actually seem to DO, as opposed to what might make logical sense. Good point about the "do I cram on, or walk to the middle" which I forgot to quote - that's definitely a mindgame many people play every morning.

[Barnes]

Plus, the first train to arrive doesn't always leave first. Sometimes they make an announcement, some times they don't.

[earl69]

Have to say, since the installation of the digital arrival boards at the C-train stations along the South line, service is the best it has ever been (and this is from someone who has rode the train, through thick and thin, for 9 long years). It is almost as if there is now some accountability with these guys. Anyways, keep it up.

[mersar]

They've started installing the SmartCard readers onto some of the buses, someone over on cptdb spotted one on 7685.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by mersar

They've started installing the SmartCard readers onto some of the buses, someone over on cptdb spotted one on 7685.

I noticed your post on that forum, and the proposed increase of the bus tickets from the current $24 per 10 to $30 per 10. Do you have any more information about that?

I'm interested to see how the card readers work in buses. Presumably there has to be some kind of mechanism that lets the bus driver know you 'tapped in', but with the volumes some buses see, I wonder how easy it will be for a driver to check who paid and who hasn't (like if 30 people get on in one stop, how easy it will be to see which 'payment indication' correlates to which person)

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Plus, the first train to arrive doesn't always leave first. Sometimes they make an announcement, some times they don't.

Not often, but yeah this does happen (usually when something breaks or they're running weird schedules to compensate for trouble further down the line). Which makes me curious as to how they plan on implementing this. Will there be arrows that clearly show "the train on your left is departing first"? Because if you can't clearly tell which train is departing first, it comes back to my belief that departure times are next to useless for the morning rush.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by mersar

They've started installing the SmartCard readers onto some of the buses, someone over on cptdb spotted one on 7685.

I hope they're RFID cards and not Smart cards.

If anyone doesn't understand the difference, Google it or don't worry. Suffice it to say that Smart cards would be an unmitigated disaster in terms of loading times.

[MalcolmTucker]

I believe SmartCards have become the kleenex of 'data' carrying cards. We already know they will be contactless cards.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

I noticed your post on that forum, and the proposed increase of the bus tickets from the current $24 per 10 to $30 per 10. Do you have any more information about that?

From the Herald's analysis of the proposed budget:

Transit fare
- Seniors annual pass rises from $35 now, to $55 next year, $75 year after and $96 in 2014.
-Adult monthly passes from $90 now to $94 next year, to $96 in 2014
-Youth monthly pass from $54.25 now to $57.50 next year, $60 in 2014
-Adult cash fares from $2.75 now to $3 in 2013
-Youth cash fares from $1.75 now to $2 in 2014
-Adult ticket 10-pack from $24 now to $27.50 next year and $30 in 2013
-Youth ticket 10-pack from $15 now to $17.50 next year and $20 in 2014

Source: Calgary Herald

Originally Posted by 5seconds

I'm interested to see how the card readers work in buses. Presumably there has to be some kind of mechanism that lets the bus driver know you 'tapped in', but with the volumes some buses see, I wonder how easy it will be for a driver to check who paid and who hasn't (like if 30 people get on in one stop, how easy it will be to see which 'payment indication' correlates to which person)

Probably similar to other cities where it will have an indicator light somewhere or make an audible noise based on if its a valid fare.

[5seconds]

Great, thanks!

EDIT: That's kind of shocking, when a monthly pass is going up $4-$6 but a book of 10 is going up by $6 (And with only a solid-week's worth of tickets, that could translate into a 'monthly' increase of $24!)

Right now I buy books of 10 because when I did the math, I think I only had to get a ride 3 days a month for the tickets to work out to be a better price (or 1 bank holiday and 2 rides etc.) Of course if this goes ahead, I will be buying monthlys, but the flexibility was nice.

EDIT EDIT: I use to have a yearly pass when I lived in the UK. It was expensive, but LOTS of employers would give you an interest free loan and it would just be deducted from your salary. It was great, and the savings was very substantial. I wonder if that would be on the cards any time.

[AgentGibb]

Originally Posted by mersar

Transit fare
- Seniors annual pass rises from $35 now, to $55 next year, $75 year after and $96 in 2014.
-Adult monthly passes from $90 now to $94 next year, to $96 in 2014
-Youth monthly pass from $54.25 now to $57.50 next year, $60 in 2014
-Adult cash fares from $2.75 now to $3 in 2013
-Youth cash fares from $1.75 now to $2 in 2014
-Adult ticket 10-pack from $24 now to $27.50 next year and $30 in 2013
-Youth ticket 10-pack from $15 now to $17.50 next year and $20 in 2014

It looks like starting next year there will be no discount for buying the 10-pack versus the cash fare. I presume the idea is to phase out the 10-packs once the contactless cards are available...

[bigcanuck]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Right now I buy books of 10 because when I did the math, I think I only had to get a ride 3 days a month for the tickets to work out to be a better price (or 1 bank holiday and 2 rides etc.) Of course if this goes ahead, I will be buying monthlys, but the flexibility was nice.

I hope you took into account that you get a tax deduction for purchasing the monthly pass. Not so with tickets.

[freeweed]

Monthly passes SHOULD be cheaper than the equivalent cash fares (and even somewhat fewer) that the average person would use commuting 5 days a week. It's one of the better ways to encourage even more transit use. You already have the pass, so why not take transit instead of driving to the game, or the mall, or the bar, or whatever. When you're debating another $5-6... most people would just drive.

I'm still waiting to hear if I have to "tap in" or not with a pass on the LRT. Seeing as they have to check your pass anyway for fare enforcement, there's no actual reason other than ridership tracking. And it's just another time I have to take off my gloves and whip out my wallet in -30 weather. Needless to say, I'm really hoping they go with serving the customer's interests first.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by bigcanuck

I hope you took into account that you get a tax deduction for purchasing the monthly pass. Not so with tickets.

I did. If I got dropped off, picked up, or took the car just 3 times most months, I think I broke even. Add in a bank holiday or a sick day or something and it was usually more to get a pass.

The tickets are more flexible: I knew that if I didn't use the bus on a certain day, I could use those tickets to pay for a ride next month or whenever. With a pass, once the month is over, it's over.

Occasionally a pass might have been a few dollars cheaper, but the price difference is so close that I preferred the flexibility, especially when I wouldn't see the savings for a year (via tax return). Though if the ticket book prices go up, the decision to get a pass will be a very easy one.

Originally Posted by freeweed

Monthly passes SHOULD be cheaper than the equivalent cash fares (and even somewhat fewer) that the average person would use commuting 5 days a week. It's one of the better ways to encourage even more transit use. You already have the pass, so why not take transit instead of driving to the game, or the mall, or the bar, or whatever. When you're debating another $5-6... most people would just drive.

I agree, actually. For me the book-price going up will be less convenient, but the monthly pass would be about the same price. It might encourage me to use the bus more (not that I can ride it that much more than I do, but maybe a little)

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Monthly passes SHOULD be cheaper than the equivalent cash fares (and even somewhat fewer) that the average person would use commuting 5 days a week. It's one of the better ways to encourage even more transit use. You already have the pass, so why not take transit instead of driving to the game, or the mall, or the bar, or whatever. When you're debating another $5-6... most people would just drive.

I'm still waiting to hear if I have to "tap in" or not with a pass on the LRT. Seeing as they have to check your pass anyway for fare enforcement, there's no actual reason other than ridership tracking. And it's just another time I have to take off my gloves and whip out my wallet in -30 weather. Needless to say, I'm really hoping they go with serving the customer's interests first.

They could just put very powerful readers by station entrances so get people walking through. If that wouldn't contravene whatever standard they are using. On a story for Global National or W5, or Marketplace they showed RFID reading from more than 20 feet away, so not impossible....