Toronto: Tea Party mayor on the rocks

[Gerrard]

Is there anything more provincial than nixing a vote for a candidate because of where he was born?

jeez.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by mr.John

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

After amalgamation certain services were unloaded onto the city. Transportation being one.

How did New York almost go bankrupt in the 70s? it happens.

But at least in New York people are required to pay a city income tax.

The city of Toronto (and other cities in Canada) do not have this power or option.

Blame the feds and the provincial governments.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by mr.John

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

First of all the $774 million figure is a fabrication. It is nowhere near that high. Beyond that a major factor is Ford's refusal to raise property taxes in-line with inflation (defacto tax freeze) and cut revenues gained through the vehicle registration tax.

Beyond this we'd have to get into a discussion about the lopsided municipal tax structure where the low rate of residential property taxes means that all the new condos aren't substantially adding to the tax base when servicing is accounted for. And downloading from the Province, where Toronto faces an undue burden of social costs in comparison with suburban municipalities.

[WhipperSnapper]

The people living in the massive condos have largely not begun to pay adequate property taxes but have required the city to spend a small fortune upgrading infrastructure eventhough these improvement are heavily subsidized through development fees.

There are many condo towers that have had people move in up to two years ago that still haven't had the units close. Even once the units have closed, it takes awhile for the base assessment of $30,000 to be adjusted to reflect market value.

[mr.John]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The people living in the massive condos have largely not begun to pay adequate property taxes but have required the city to spend a small fortune upgrading infrastructure eventhough these improvement are heavily subsidized through development fees.

There are many condo towers that have had people move in up to two years ago that still haven't had the units close. Even once the units have closed, it takes awhile for the base assessment of $30,000 to be adjusted to reflect market value.

yeah but this condo boom (including some major hotels) has been going on for over 5 years at least, and considering Toronto has probably the highest property taxes in the country (or at least one of the highest) the city should be seeing a huge increase in revenue, I can't believe all this construction hasn't benefited the city one bit

[caltrane74]

Toronto property tax was less than 1% in many areas. - I know when the city amalgamated, they had to equalize between the lower and higher rates in the core and suburbs.

[Calgarian]

I guess the positive on this is that in 3 years, you will probably have an actual intellegent person in the Mayors office.

This just makes me more glad we elected Nenshi, a guy who is actually qualified to be a mayor, instead of a loudmouth bully like Ford.

[mr.John]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Toronto property tax was less than 1% in many areas. - I know when the city amalgamated, they had to equalize between the lower and higher rates in the core and suburbs.

suppose I own a condo in the heart of DT Toronto which I paided $450,000 for, what kind of tax bill am I looking at (roughly)? and does it all go to the city

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by mr.John

suppose I own a condo in the heart of DT Toronto which I paided $450,000 for, what kind of tax bill am I looking at (roughly)? and does it all go to the city

Probably $3500.00. And yes. Some goes to the city and a portion goes to education.

[niwell]

And the city provides services with those tax dollars. Especially for initial infrastructure as Whippersnapper mentioned.

I'm not sure about Canada-wide, but the City of Toronto has one of the lowest residential tax rates in the Province, and by far the lowest in the Greater Golden Horseshoe. The City makes a disproportionate percentage of revenue from commercial properties, for which the tax rate is the highest in the region. And while Toronto is having a mini office boom downtown, commercial/industrial areas in the outer parts of the 416 aren't doing so hot.

[Highinthesky]

Does Mr. John actually know anything about what he speaks or does he just throw a bunch of bull at the wall and see what sticks.

Stop taking the bait

[mr.John]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Probably $3500.00. And yes. Some goes to the city and a portion goes to education.

that's not too bad, I thought it would have been much higher( something like $5,000)

[mr.John]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

Does Mr. John actually know anything about what he speaks or does he just throw a bunch of bull at the wall and see what sticks.

Stop taking the bait

What bait? I'm asking about property taxes in the Toronto area, the reason is because I've talked to a few people from TO and they give me wildly different numbers (none of them live downtown)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by niwell

I'm not sure about Canada-wide, but the City of Toronto has one of the lowest residential tax rates in the Province, and by far the lowest in the Greater Golden Horseshoe. The City makes a disproportionate percentage of revenue from commercial properties, for which the tax rate is the highest in the region. And while Toronto is having a mini office boom downtown, commercial/industrial areas in the outer parts of the 416 aren't doing so hot.

This seems pretty common and is what you'd expect when far more voters are directly affected by residential rates. It is pretty problematic, particularly for a municipality like the City of Toronto that has to compete with office parks in neighbouring towns.

Fundamentally I think property tax is messed up and provides the wrong incentives. It would be better for municipalities to have access to other revenue sources like user fees and maybe income tax, although implementing any changes like that would be very difficult.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by someone123

This seems pretty common and is what you'd expect when far more voters are directly affected by residential rates. It is pretty problematic, particularly for a municipality like the City of Toronto that has to compete with office parks in neighbouring towns.

Fundamentally I think property tax is messed up and provides the wrong incentives. It would be better for municipalities to have access to other revenue sources like user fees and maybe income tax, although implementing any changes like that would be very difficult.

Indeed. Or greater flexibility in implementation of tax rates. A rate that is completely appropriate in downtown Toronto may be completely innappropriate in an area across the street from Vaughan. In general though Canadian municipalities rely far too heavily on property tax as a source of revenue. The situation in large cities soouth of the border is significantly different (though not without a whole other set of problems).

[Cre47]

And folks in Toronto have to endure him for another three years. Hang on tight folks!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

the american thing just doesn't seem like something that is part of the torontonian self-ideal. i don't find the city's demeanour or character to be very american, even as its physical environment, to some degree, is. america and americans are louder and warmer. toronto is commonwealth high-capitalist, an example of convergent evolution.

other canadian cities feel more american to me, or at least like they could be more plausibly stitched into the american nation. halifax, oddly enough, is one.

Well, Toronto doesn't really feel like a city in the United States because it is not in the United States. But to me at least (and to many other people I would guess) it does feel like a Canadian city that kinda... sorta... a teensy bit... tries to be like an American city - without actually going all the way over the edge.

Just visiting and talking to people from across the country, Torontonians (and people in Southern Ontario) seem to be the Canadians who have the biggest "we Canadians built a better America" schtick going on, and from this flows the mentality that in Canada you can have all the "good stuff" about the U.S. (NFL, Chuck E. Cheese's Pizza Time Theatre, peanut butter, etc.) without all of the bad stuff (ghettos, slavery, rednecks, Tea Partiers, military boondoggles, crime, etc.).

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by Cre47

And folks in Toronto have to endure him for another three years. Hang on tight folks!

My heart bleeds. hehehe suckas....


Oh, wait...



Robert Skinner, La Presse

[davidivivid]

Hahahaha

[someone123]

Originally Posted by niwell

Indeed. Or greater flexibility in implementation of tax rates. A rate that is completely appropriate in downtown Toronto may be completely innappropriate in an area across the street from Vaughan. In general though Canadian municipalities rely far too heavily on property tax as a source of revenue. The situation in large cities soouth of the border is significantly different (though not without a whole other set of problems).

In Halifax there are three different rates -- urban, suburban, and rural. They are messed up unfortunately since they're based on the number of services provided without considering the quality or cost of services provided. Snow removal in a large lot subdivision for example is likely orders of magnitude more expensive than snow removal on a block with 1,000 residents in apartment towers.

On the one hand it's tempting to think that Toronto could gain from more amalgamation but on the other in Halifax the gains have been offset by the large number of suburban councillors. In practice they end up raiding the tax base of the core to build a bunch of very decentralized stuff. For a period of about 15 year post-amalgamation I believe literally nothing was built by the city downtown except a sewage treatment plant. During that time they've built a bunch of stuff like a $40M quadruple skating rink out in one suburban area.