Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

You make a good point. It feels to me like there's a desire to keep this project "modest"/"minimalist" which resulted in an artificial 10,000 seat target, but for whatever reason $60M or so is the number being thrown around. Normally you'd just have one of those things follow from the other (e.g. budget, then prioritized requirements).

If they go with a brownfield type of site maybe a significant portion of the money would be eaten up by costs other than stadium construction, like remediation and transportation-related infrastructure. As I've said before this seems like the best way to go. I think Halifax would get a lot more out of a centrally-located stadium. It would cost a bit more but those costs are not significant over the lifetime of such a major piece of infrastructure. A stadium is exactly the type of important thing you want to put in a good location, and Halifax has many underused sites.

[MonctonRad]

Yes, it would be good to know if the $60M figure is "all inclusive" and includes site purchase, preparation, remediation, road access, parking etc.

The $20M spent in Moncton on the stadium was just on the facility itself. There's no on site parking and there is no special road access. The stadium was built on a level field requiring virtually no site preparation and the land was provided for free.

[fenwick16]

One more question that I had regarding the survey is that it mentioned Saint Mary's University as a possible site for a 10K + 10K stadium. I didn't think it was possible to put 20,000 seats at Saint Mary's University. If it were possible to put 20K seats at SMU then $60 million dollars could build a very nice 20K permanent seat stadium since there would be no land cost or parking cost. If there were room for 5K more seats then a CFL team could play there in the near future. That might be better than having a permanent 10K stadium at Shannon Park which might not be expanded anytime in the near future. On the other hand if SMU doesn't want a 20K - 25K stadium on campus then that should rule out SMU as a possible location.

[someone123]

I thought it was pointed out officially at one point that SMU simply doesn't have the space for a 25,000 seat stadium. They also have the track, which is apparently undesirable.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

One more question that I had regarding the survey is that it mentioned Saint Mary's University as a possible site for a 10K + 10K stadium. I didn't think it was possible to put 20,000 seats at Saint Mary's University. If it were possible to put 20K seats at SMU then $60 million dollars could build a very nice 20K permanent seat stadium since there would be no land cost or parking cost. If there were room for 5K more seats then a CFL team could play there in the near future. That might be better than having a permanent 10K stadium at Shannon Park which might not be expanded anytime in the near future. On the other hand if SMU doesn't want a 20K - 25K stadium on campus then that should rule out SMU as a possible location.

A stadium at SMU would definitely be forcing non-HRMers to travel aaaalll the way into the city.

Some people on this forum have expressed their perceived importance of choosing a location such as Dartmouth Crossing because apparently Maritimers don't want to drive all the way into Halifax...

I completely question this assumption. If they'll drive to Dartmouth--they'll drive a bit further and go all the way onto the peninsula.

Having a stadium inside the city translates into people spending their money inside the city.

My main concern with choosing SMU are potential spin-off investments. Much of the south end is nestled with low-density, albeit high-value, residential housing.

Yes, choosing SMU brings the benefit of stimulating the university and stimulating the downtown (especially its night life), and perhaps more tax revenue could be collected from this peninsular location--but what of future developments? Aside from bringing further demand upon the services of the downtown, what high-density projects would be permitted around the stadium?

[halifaxboyns]

SMU would have virtually no high density potential directly around it. The only area I could think that could further densify would be along Tower Road and Wellington Street (between South and Inglis) as that area is all R-3.
But most of it is also in the viewplanes and there is the heritage streetscape along Tower Road.

So at best, I think you could get around 5 to 10 stories in that area but you'd have some major challenges.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

A stadium at SMU would definitely be forcing non-HRMers to travel aaaalll the way into the city.

Yes, how dare those arrogant Halifax-area residents pay to build a stadium in a location convenient for them rather than one that is marginally more convenient for the people in Moncton or Charlottetown who might occasionally in the future come down if one day a CFL team decides to set up shop...?

These debates have a way of shifting and incorporating weird, parochial sentiment until they are so warped that they look completely absurd from an outside perspective.

I have not seen Jim Jones type figures bashing Toronto or Vancouver. I guess he's a uniquely Maritime type of troll.

[Welkin]

I hate to say it, but we might be seeing the writing on the wall. A 10,000 permanent seat stadium for SMU with 10,000 temporary seats for the FIFA World Cup. Halifax gets to be part of the World Cup, SMU gets their new stadium and the CFL does not come to Halifax. Any one want to place a bet on how this is going to turn out? I am also guessing the final stadium budget will be closer to $35 million in the end, rather than $60 million (who needs to spend $60 million on a 10,000 seat stadium). If all we get is a dinky 10,000 seat stadium for SMU, then this will suck. It will be just another blown opportunity. But hey, its Halifax. You didn't really expect anything better, did you?

[beyeas]

I am also getting a tad worried about the direction this project is going.

I hope it starts getting some wind in its sails, because lately it seems like its been going in the wrong direction, including having developers like Peter Polley come out strongly against it and in fact calling a stadium project "insanity".

There needs to be some positive news (an improved rendering perhaps?) to start getting momentum in the right direction again, because lately it has seemed like this project is not going the way it should.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am also getting a tad worried about the direction this project is going.

I hope it starts getting some wind in its sails, because lately it seems like its been going in the wrong direction, including having developers like Peter Polley come out strongly against it and in fact calling a stadium project "insanity".

There needs to be some positive news (an improved rendering perhaps?) to start getting momentum in the right direction again, because lately it has seemed like this project is not going the way it should.

I get the same feeling. But most of the wind has been taken from stadium supporters sails because of the minimalist approach being taken. I don't know of any supporters who are excited by the 10K +10K concept and I wonder how much support it will get from the private sector. If stadium supporters are bored by the 10K + 10K concept then won't private investors also be bored?

On the plus side, now that stadium supporters expectations have been lowered by the 10K + 10K concept, a 15K permanent + 5K temporary concept would seem exciting.

The illustration below is from the phase 1 business plan - http://halifax.ca/stadium/documents/Phase1-StadiumAnalysisStaffReport_Council.pdf. It shows 24 lower rows and 24 upper rows on one side. The type A grandstand will be the most costly structure because it will contain change-rooms, medical rooms, referee rooms, etc. The upper 24 rows are shown as being temporary. If the upper rows were permanent then the grandstand would be about the same size as each of the InfoCision Stadium grandstands. Then if 5,000 permanent seats were built to match the lower stands on the type "B" side it would have 15,000 permanent seats. The 5,000 additional type "B" seats would have no interior space and would be relatively inexpensive. In the future, the upper tier of the 5,000 seat side could be completed. Maybe they could forget about the endzone seats for now and just have grassy hills and landscaping at each end. *** What about something similar in concept to a smaller version of this ASU concept - http://www.alasu.edu/multimedia/videos/stadium-fly-over/index.aspx. *** (Thanks to cjones2451 for pointing out this stadium).

[cjones2451]

I do have a quick question for the temporary seating, I know the temp seating for the Touchdown Atlantic had bench style seating, but I am pretty sure FIFA requires seat backs, so what is the cost of temp seating with seat backs? If it was a bowl style stadium it could save ion construction costs of steel and concrete and could they not reclaim some of the cost by digging below the surface and even selling / using the fill elsewhere for revenue?

I was also at Empire Field with the Lions and although I am amazed at what they did with a temporary stadium, the seats with backs were not that comfortable and the using of port-a-potties gets old real fast

I think using temp seating is very short sited and may be okay for 4-5 FIFA WC games, but then what does this stadium become? To small for the CFL and it sounds like the universities won't use it

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

I think using temp seating is very short sited and may be okay for 4-5 FIFA WC games, but then what does this stadium become? To small for the CFL and it sounds like the universities won't use it

We need the universities to use in order to make it useful. The issue is how many students are going to go to Dartmouth Crossing or even Shannon Park to watch their teams games? It is certainly a lot easier when the stadium is on campus understandably. Do the universities still offer the transit passes? Even better if Metro Transit provided service to and from the stadium on game nights.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

We need the universities to use in order to make it useful. The issue is how many students are going to go to Dartmouth Crossing or even Shannon Park to watch their teams games? It is certainly a lot easier when the stadium is on campus understandably. Do the universities still offer the transit passes? Even better if Metro Transit provided service to and from the stadium on game nights.

This is another case where I wish there was more coherent direction and more data collected by a study or something.

I suspect that the pro-DC arguments are pretty much bogus aside from the fact that the land is cheaper, and the cheap land is a result of the fact that a location like that is undesirable.

If the stadium went up on the peninsula there would be maybe 50,000 people within a couple kilometres plus a large number of hotels, lots of workers, students, etc. who are around anyway. The suburbanites would still be able to get there because they all have cars anyway, and there's tons of parking and road capacity available in the evening. Big events on the scale of a CFL game happen all the time on the peninsula without problems and yet every time something like this is proposed a suburban location is treated as a kind of default/"sensible" option.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Windsor park baby... there has got to be enough room there. I'm going back to it.

Highway access from Bedford, Dartmouth, and still technically on the peninsula. With the residential development around there, it seems a perfect way to get rid of al of that industrial wasteland.

[someone123]

I agree that it could be a good site, but there is probably not enough time to make that work for something like FIFA.

What should have happened ideally is that the city should have continued to quietly pursue plans for a stadium after the CWG bid collapsed around 2007 or so. Instead there's no direction so we go back to square one every time council gets cold feet in the middle of some opportunistic flirtation with spending millions for an event none of them had even heard of a few months earlier.

[Jstaleness]

I'm starting to wonder if we should forget about FIFA at this point as has been stated I think before. Was that organization going to chip in some funds? Did it mean government funds? If not I would look to the future for both Stadium and lands and pursue the DND Lands as well. Then there is no time constraints. We'll have an ideal centralized location that the Universities and hopefully CFL can get the most of. Also, that's a highly visible location that we could all be proud to look at as we drove/walked and biked by.

[fenwick16]

The next public consultation is on Wednesday November 16th which will summarize the results from the first 2 consultations. It will be interesting; will the conclusion be that most people want a 10K + 10K stadium? If it is then I will be surprised. I thought that based on reading the phase 1 report that at least a 15K permanent seat stadium would be considered.

Hopefully there will be a good turnout at the November 16th meeting (10 days away).

[worldlyhaligonian]

Yeah, I don't really care about FIFA either, but they would probably dictate better minimum standards as to what the HRM would execute if left up to their own devices.

All in all, this just needs to happen.

[sk8tr]

I'm really in favour of a peninsula location for the stadium. Originally, I liked the Gorsebrook pit (where the softball fields are). Currently underutilized. Equidistant between Dal and St. Mary's to capture the most students, and easily within walking distance for thousands. Plus, it's already sunken. Kids visiting the IWK would have ready-made skyboxes!

I was up on the citadel on a sunny weekday recently, and looked down at the Wanderer's grounds. I'm not sure if the site is quite big enough for the kind of stadium that we would all like to see, but I think, on balance, this is a pretty great location too. The new YMCA would be across the street and well-positioned to run some of their programs on site. I'm not sure if this would be a natural partnership, but it seems like it could be pretty beneficial for the Y if handled correctly. And maybe, just maybe, the community might be more accepting of this location if the Y were involved.

[RyeJay]

The FIFA idea should be tossed, honestly, if we are going to be serious about the CFL.

Let's build a LONG-TERM stadium.