Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Fenwick-
Great pictures. Thanks for going down to Ohio and getting these pictures. It looks like a great, sensible stadium that works very well within the economics of the CFL. A stadium this nice for $60+ million makes me wonder why other CFL cities are spending so much money for their new stadiums. Winnipeg is spending $190 million, Hamilton $152 million and Regina $500-600 million. Are construction costs so much higher here than they are in the states that a new 25,000 seat stadium is going to cost $150-200 million? I think not. A stadium like this is just perfect for the CFL. Maybe spend another $10 million for individual seats instead of all benches (benches would work just fine in the cheaper end zone seats), and you have a great stadium for just $75 million. For the life of me I can't figure out why other CFL cities are spending so much. Halifax seems to be the only city that understands that fans are going to start staying away in droves if decent tickets to a CFL game are going to start costing $80-90. They have to pay for these new palaces one way or another, and higher ticket prices (and higher taxes) are the main way.
Thanks again for the pictures.

I think that the InfoCision Stadium would be more comparable to a Percival Molson Stadium or a newer, sunken version of Ivor Wynne Stadium. Montrealers have shown that a Percival Molson type stadium can work for the CFL.

I prefer the retro-style stadiums as compared to ultra-modern stadiums. InfoCision is a very practical, functional stadium without all the bells and whistles of the more costly stadiums. (I believe the $190 million cost for the Winnipeg Stadium includes a $45 million dollar recreation centre that is separate from the stadium, also it will have 33,000 seats)

PS: I think that having folding seats is a necessity; bench seating makes access to seats very difficult when there are people already seated. I also think that at least backed seats are a requirement for the FIFA Women's Cup. But I think that the difference in installed cost between bench and armless, folding seats may be more in the order of $2 million - $3 million for 20,000 seats (as opposed to $10 million). I am sure that there are premium, folding seats that would cost a significant amount but I don't think such premium-style seats would be required in a Halifax-area stadium. Here is a link to a detailed cost estimate for a municipal stadium refurbishment in Madison, Wisconsin - http://www.cityofmadison.com/Parks/documents/010208ConceptandBudgetReport.pdf . It lists costs for bench style; new, individual folding seats; and re-used seats. The cost for new, folding seats in that cost estimate is $242,250 for 2,850 new, folding seats, which works out to $85 dollars per folding seat (it doesn't specify if this includes installation cost, but probably not).

I think the style of folding seats in this image would be good - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-5fW11rjk04/TV...lnlKS8/s1600/Cardiff+City+Stadium+11.jpg (source: http://tims92.blogspot.com/2011/02/cardiff-city-cardiff-city-stadium.html ). This style wouldn't take as much space as folding seats with armrests, and would probably be less expensive. However, they are still counter-balanced to automatically return to an upright position when not in use.

[ATL Stadium]

Fenwick.....loved your infocision stadium photos....I took some time in Montreal last week to walk around P Molson Stadium....I've never attended a game there and have heard loads of traffic issues stories....but .....I found it a very nice spot....almost intimate setting...very good sight lines and even though they have a track you sure seem close to the action....
The stadium is built right into the university buildings along two sides...
I'll try to post a couple of photos...

[Empire]

Suggestion:

Location: Shannon Park
Stadium: Irving Yard
CFL Team: Halifax Destroyers
Slogan: Winning Starts Here (Halifaxboyns)

If a combination stadium and residential units were built at Shannon Park perhaps the cost of the stadium would be reduced. This location would be ideal for shipyard workers. An Irving built ferry could transport employees from the building to the shipyard. Some units on the top few floors could have a view of the both the field and the harbour by running the main corridor on the harbourside and entering a split level unit.

[fenwick16]

A partial roof, if built, would obstruct the view of the field from a sideline apartment building (a partial roof, even a modest one, might be important in Halifax). I think that having associated residential and commercial is a good idea, especially if a stadium is located at Shannon Park. Not only might it help offset the cost a stadium, it would mean that there would be people around to prevent vandalism. If a stadium is out of view then I have a fear that it will be covered with graffiti.

[halifaxboyns]

The issue that hasn't been talked about, but was raised in the funding debate is the issue of road access and additional services. Now I'm not sure if the cost of the stadium includes that or if that would be considered an extra? If someone knows, please let me know - I'm guessing here.

Now with Dartmouth Common, there is the benefit of some existing road infrastructure - but it's likely that it would have to be modified somewhat and additional roads and sewers added to deal with parking lots, drainage during rain storms and the actual servicing of the stadium. But from a servicing cost perspective, Dartmouth Common will likely come out cheaper because of some existing infrastructure being there already (at least in my mind).

Shannon Park, I've always said, is like a blank slate. Yes, there is some infrastructure there, but it will likely have to be replaced because it wouldn't be able to cope with a stadium. Plus depending on how it's developed and if mixed use is included, you'd also need to include new roads, road access from Windmill Road, crossings over the railway (an at grade crossing ain't going to cut it if a train goes by as people are trying to get home), plus sewer and storm water. All that is going to add a lot of $, but the positive is that it would be geared towards not only a stadium but a mixed use community as well. So the income from land sales, property taxes and business taxes could help reduce that cost - but it would take time.

I would eventually like to see a fully enclosed stadium along the lines of BC place - but that's years off and my own personal preference. Regardless where the team/stadium ends up, I'll still buy seasons tickets if I move home.

[JET]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Now with Dartmouth Common, there is the benefit of some existing road infrastructure - but it's likely that it would have to be modified somewhat and additional roads and sewers added to deal with parking lots, drainage during rain storms and the actual servicing of the stadium. But from a servicing cost perspective, Dartmouth Common will likely come out cheaper because of some existing infrastructure being there already (at least in my mind).

I take it that your referring to Dartmouth Crossing ?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by JET

I take it that your referring to Dartmouth Crossing ?

Sorry I was half asleep when I posted - yes Dartmouth Crossing.

On a side note, the City of Edmonton is holding a public hearing on their new downtown arena today. The live feed is here.

[robotropolis]

I am not yet 100% sold on a stadium but understand it could be a cultural plus for the city.

If it does happen, I REALLY REALLY hope it can happen at Shannon Park. The major reason for me is that I would like to see a showcase development on the waterfront that would really enhance the Dartmouth Skyline from Halifax. I feel it would raise the stadium profile and make it much more of an attraction. Plus reasons already stated: easy access to the Circ, exit already in place (albeit would need to be widened -- I went down there the other day), all the hotels right in the area - Travelodge, Ramada, Comfort, Days, Hampton, Best Western, Holiday Inn Harbourview (and the Burnside Hotel if you prefer to pay by the hour) potential for additional residential and commercial.

I wish ferry access to the area was more convenient. I found going over to Alderney Gate via ferry for big concerts to be surprisingly easy. I'd say there were 6-8000 at the Arcade Fire concert and the wait for ferry was not excessive at all. Bump that up by a ferry or two and you're talking large numbers in little time.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by robotropolis

I am not yet 100% sold on a stadium but understand it could be a cultural plus for the city.

If it does happen, I REALLY REALLY hope it can happen at Shannon Park. The major reason for me is that I would like to see a showcase development on the waterfront that would really enhance the Dartmouth Skyline from Halifax. I feel it would raise the stadium profile and make it much more of an attraction. Plus reasons already stated: easy access to the Circ, exit already in place (albeit would need to be widened -- I went down there the other day), all the hotels right in the area - Travelodge, Ramada, Comfort, Days, Hampton, Best Western, Holiday Inn Harbourview (and the Burnside Hotel if you prefer to pay by the hour) potential for additional residential and commercial.

I wish ferry access to the area was more convenient. I found going over to Alderney Gate via ferry for big concerts to be surprisingly easy. I'd say there were 6-8000 at the Arcade Fire concert and the wait for ferry was not excessive at all. Bump that up by a ferry or two and you're talking large numbers in little time.

I too would prefer the stadium to take shape at Shannon Park, given the choice between this location and that of Dartmouth Crossing.

A Shannon Park stadium would be an amazing investment into Dartmouth's side of the harbour waterfront. It would stimulate the surrounding infrastructure, adding value to surrounding properties.

While my initial thoughts of skylines are that a stadium at Shannnon Park would offer an impressive view of Halifax's skyline, a Shannon Park stadium would jolt the Dartmouth skyline is a major way. It shall stimulate development, in particular the higher elevated lands; they'll have great views of the stadium!

Can you imagine a Dartmouth skyline, from the southern iconic King's Wharf tower--to the nothern Shannon Park stadium.

Dartmouth Crossing will benefit from traffic outside of the HRM, regardless. Their geographical position makes this so.

A Shannon Park stadium means this cultural infrastructure will be more centrally located within the culture using it most frequently.

If HRM is concerned about a stadium being connective to culture--then a waterfront stadium is much more valuable than one stuck in an industrial business park.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by robotropolis

all the hotels right in the area - Travelodge, Ramada, Comfort, Days, Hampton, Best Western, Holiday Inn Harbourview (and the Burnside Hotel if you prefer to pay by the hour) potential for additional residential and commercial.

Hit one of the nails on the head for me. Being in Calgary, I've learned a lot about the history of MacMahon Stadium and how it developed and part of the reason why 'motel village' (adjacent to the Banff Trail LRT stop - which serves the stadium) ended up where it did was because of the stadium.

I think some people have gotten the idea that people coming to the city to see a game would flood a lot of the higher end hotels (which I suspect a good amount would), but if it's families they will be looking for affordable accommodations. If you look at Motel Village, essentially all the same hotels you listed are there as well.

Plus the addition of a mixed use community around the stadium site (up against the water) in a type of boardwalk setting then provides the restaurants/services people going to the stadium would want. Not to say that DC doesn't have that either, but the interesting part of SP would be to see a whole new community spring up from what was. Plus the chance of building a high speed ferry connection (which could then use the stadium parking) and then having people live close to this...so many possibilities.

[Haliwood]

As far as the actual design goes, I really pray that they don't build a massive track around the field. Having a track in between the field and the seating ruins that atmosphere of the stadium completely.

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Plus the addition of a mixed use community around the stadium site (up against the water) in a type of boardwalk setting then provides the restaurants/services people going to the stadium would want. Not to say that DC doesn't have that either, but the interesting part of SP would be to see a whole new community spring up from what was. Plus the chance of building a high speed ferry connection (which could then use the stadium parking) and then having people live close to this...so many possibilities.

I really like the thought of the waterfront boardwalk as well. On off nights when there aren't any games or events at the stadium there would still be people in the area enjoying the scenery. Should be able to have some local coffee shops (two if by sea) down there. Maybe something similar to Halifax waterfront as well and throw in a Beavertails.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I really like the thought of the waterfront boardwalk as well. On off nights when there aren't any games or events at the stadium there would still be people in the area enjoying the scenery. Should be able to have some local coffee shops (two if by sea) down there. Maybe something similar to Halifax waterfront as well and throw in a Beavertails.

I like the idea of a waterfront boardwalk as well - which is what makes SP a great site. But the good thing is that this concept could be done independant of a stadium - so if the stadium ends up else where, the SP redevelopment could still do this concept.

In my vision of SP (with a stadium), I wanted to see a 4 laned boulevard like the Commonwealth game concept that went around the edge of the stadium site and was the principle access over the railway ROW.

But unlike the CG concept, I wanted the opposite side of the street to be development similar to Bishop's landing - right up against a harbour boardwalk, ranging in height but not obscuring the stadium from being seen from the harbour. I'm guessing in the 4 storey range for most parts and a few point 'towers' up to 10 storeys. The taller more intense buildings (10 storey +) I'd put closer to the bridge, but still on the boardwalk.

Then as you got closer to the NSP site the boardwalk would wrap into a small park, where you could have some Micmac stories or something along that line (since there is a landclaim on the site) and then the highspeed ferry terminal.

The mixed use would have restaurants and shops of different sizes, but no big box retail. One site, which would allow a point tower, could also be a hotel but the parking would have to be concealed similar to Bishops in a courtyard style idea.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I really like the thought of the waterfront boardwalk as well. On off nights when there aren't any games or events at the stadium there would still be people in the area enjoying the scenery. Should be able to have some local coffee shops (two if by sea) down there. Maybe something similar to Halifax waterfront as well and throw in a Beavertails.

Businesses like that would need customers. This is Shannon Park. Nobody lives there. Next dream, please.

[fenwick16]

Here is some interesting information - http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=minutes&itemid=19309 . (if this link doesn't work then check section 6.5 of the Edmonton City May 18,2011 minutes - http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/city_organization/city-council-public-hearing-minutes.aspx). The documents are dated 2011 and refer to a recent cost estimate to replacement all the seats at Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium (both folding seats and bench style seats). It gives an installed cost of $150 per seat for folding seats and $60 per seat for bench style seats. That is only a difference of $90 for folding seats versus bench style seats. With respect to a Halifax-area stadium, for 20,000 permanent seats, the difference between folding seats and bench style seats would be $1.8 million dollars. In addition to easier seat access, an all folding seat stadium will look much more impressive than all bench style seats (and backless seats aren't allowed for the FIFA World Women's Cup anyway).

If the Halifax-area builds a stadium then it would be a good idea to go with all folding seats, in my opinion. Another worthwhile extra would be extra-wide riser tread widths (between 32" - 36") to allow easy access to seats. A Halifax-area stadium probably won't have many extras but easy access to seats is an important consideration (getting in and out of narrow rows with fixed bench style seating is a major deficiency in some stadiums that I have been in). The cheap bucket style seats should also be avoided, in my opinion, since that style creates an obstruction to easy seat access.

All permanent seats like these would look good - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elizpalmer/4639447211/ (which are in the Moncton Stadium). Does anyone know how many of the Moncton Stadium seats are folding seats?

There are luxury style folding seats that can cost as much as $500 installed. However, basic folding seats are in the vicinity of $150 including installation. Bench style seats are about $60 installed. Since Halifax would need bench style seats if it doesn't get folding seats, the difference in installed cost is about $90-$100 per basic folding seat.

[TheNovaScotian]

Considering Shannon Park sits next to Burnside, Highfield, North End Dartmouth and Wallace Heights where it is one of the most dense area's in all of HRM, I would have to disagree, Burnsiders are always looking for a good place to seal a deal, I think with so much territory up for sale in that area ie. Maritime Steel and the continuing push for more integrated residential within Burnside it will spur alot of growth in that underused part of the waterfront.
Even a few tall towers would look good flanking the bridge in the background of the new stadium with a ferry link for the whole area supported by all the traffic crossing from Halifax every morning even throw in a stop on the ferry that will someday come from Bedford on its way to Halifax. There's almost more people on their way to Burnside than the CBD, which is going to explode thanks to Irving and all the nuts and bolts their going to need making Burnside even more competitive trying to lure other global industrial firms to NS

[beyeas]

Just as a discussion point...

If people were presented with a choice of A) bench seating in a large sized stadium that could seat 30k (along the lines of a US college-type stadium) and had the potential to retrofitted with folding seats later or B) 10k folding permanent folding seats and the potential to have build additional structure to add more permanent seats later... which would you go for?

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Just as a discussion point...

If people were presented with a choice of A) bench seating in a large sized stadium that could seat 30k (along the lines of a US college-type stadium) and had the potential to retrofitted with folding seats later or B) 10k folding permanent folding seats and the potential to have build additional structure to add more permanent seats later... which would you go for?

What ever one has the biggest edge as that's what I'd be sitting on.

No I would choose the first option 30k bench.

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Businesses like that would need customers. This is Shannon Park. Nobody lives there. Next dream, please.

People will live there. Say this happens and along with the stadium comes some waterfront condos. Then people would be living there.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

People will live there. Say this happens and along with the stadium comes some waterfront condos. Then people would be living there.

I second this: a Shannon Park stadium would lead to further developments on this section of Dartmouth's waterfront--along with developments in Highfield Park, along Victoria Rd, Windmill Rd, etc.; all these interconnected subdivisions would see increased property value.

Dartmouth Crossing shall continue getting customers from HRM (as the present proves). People from outside the HRM will go to Dartmouth Crossing, regardless if a stadium is in Shannon Park.

A stadium in Shannon Park means having a waterfront stadium instead of an industrial park stadium. This cultural stadium, beside the harbour, would be centrally located, stimulate Dartmouth's local economy--and ultimately clean up a currently unusable Shannon Park.