General Update/Rumour thread [Urban Ottawa]

[Harley613]

What Ottawa needs is a new Robert Campeau...a developer who believes in logical density and and has vision and isn't afraid of the old guard. I think things will change soon. The baby boomers are getting old and they seem to be the predominant generation of NIMBY's, and they are on every street and in almost every seat in city council. I feel the next generation of politicians and prominent residents will be far more accommodating to a new vision for Ottawa, one that matches the city in size and still respects the fact that it is the Capital. I don't think any of us on here who criticize the NIMBYs and the height restrictions want to destroy the damned sightlines to parliament hill. It's the rest of the city we're fighting for. When a developer is too scared to propose a building over 27 stories ANYWHERE in the core we have a problem. Time and patience, let's see what happens in five years!

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by Harley613

What Ottawa needs is a new Robert Campeau...a developer who believes in logical density and and has vision and isn't afraid of the old guard. I think things will change soon. The baby boomers are getting old and they seem to be the predominant generation of NIMBY's, and they are on every street and in almost every seat in city council. I feel the next generation of politicians and prominent residents will be far more accommodating to a new vision for Ottawa, one that matches the city in size and still respects the fact that it is the Capital.

I wouldn't paint all boomers with the same brush, but by and large I agree. I think that Ottawa-Gatineau has been growing at a very consistent rate for a very long period of time (especially compared to other cities in Canada) and that much of the older population (I would include with the Boomers, while we're generalizing, the current seniors and sadly the Gen Xers as well) hasn't yet come to terms with the fact that we are a first-tier city in Canada, not a second-tier city.

Vancouver is less than double our size, not many multiples our size, and Montreal is now less than three times our size. We are at the core of our own regional hinterland which we service (we are "the City" to Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec, and also to a lesser degree the urban centre that services Northern Ontario & Nunavut). We are a city of almost a million with a metro region of almost 1.5 million - the up and coming generations seem to be much more urban, and cognescent of this fact.

I don't think any of us on here who criticize the NIMBYs and the height restrictions want to destroy the damned sightlines to parliament hill. It's the rest of the city we're fighting for. When a developer is too scared to propose a building over 27 stories ANYWHERE in the core we have a problem. Time and patience, let's see what happens in five years!

Exactly! Maybe there's good reason for the next phase of Place de Ville to be no higher than any of the others, but why can't we have some nice towers with real & significant height in Little Italy, Tunney's Pasture, Hurdman, Confederation Heights, the undeveloped part of Carleton U Campus, Vanier at the Parkway & Montreal Road, CFB Rockliffe, or other similar locations?

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

...we are a first-tier city in Canada, not a second-tier city...We are at the core of our own regional hinterland which we service (we are "the City" to Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec, and also to a lesser degree the urban centre that services Northern Ontario & Nunavut). We are a city of almost a million with a metro region of almost 1.5 million...why can't we have some nice towers with real & significant height in Little Italy, Tunney's Pasture, Hurdman, Confederation Heights, the undeveloped part of Carleton U Campus, Vanier at the Parkway & Montreal Road, CFB Rockliffe, or other similar locations?

I love these points. Well said!

[McC]

Originally Posted by Harley613

What Ottawa needs is a new Robert Campeau...a developer who believes in logical density and and has vision and isn't afraid of the old guard.

You do know that Campeau was building cookie cutter houses in the suburbs at the same time, right? they were all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

[S-Man]

They're all valid points, though I would hesitate to put Little Italy in the same development potential zone as those other locations. But yes, there are so many places where height wouldn't bother people due to a large buffer distance, but as the NIMBYs have taught us repeatedly the last decade or so, just the IDEA and thought of a tall building - anywhere - is enough for a public outcry.
Pointing out how the city is growing and economic factors will just be met with 'quality of life' and the usual complaints. It's a brick wall. People who got used to all development occurring out of sight in the suburbs from the 60s to now aren't going to see things differently and change their tune.

The Greber Plan and the 'outwards, never upwards' car-centric planning of the last half of the 20th century is so ingrained in some people (like Ken Grey and his zombie ilk) that expecting them to realize things have to change is impossible. And it is predominately the boomers.
I've been to numerous meetings of this type, and if there are 100 people in the room, at least 80 to 90 of them are aged 45 to 70. And they're angry - not sure why, not sure at who or for what reason, but they sit there, red in the face, almost unable to contain themselves...and they don't even live on the same street as the proposed (often low-rise) development.

A psychology prof would have a field day trying to figure out this strange 'allergic to all things urban...or any type of change' syndrome. Too often I hear people say "we don't need light rail - we're not a big city (or specifically, Toronto)"
Same goes for tall buildings, even bars and sports teams (!).

Their argument is always "what are we trying to prove - that we're a big city?", to which I reply: Yes, we are!
This desperately-clinging-to-small-town mentality reeks of fear of change and does no service to the million-plus people who need to get around the city without cars (!), get to work, and pay for constantly-reduced services. What was the population of Toronto in the '50s when the first light rail line was built? Probably less than what we are now. Edmonton has less population, but already has light rail.

I don't see how problems of density, transit, sprawl and tax revenue don't apply to Ottawa on the grounds of 'we're Ottawa'. It makes no sense.

The population and geographical expanse of the city's urban area has grown by so much a change is needed. Given the limited capacity of our downtown streets and the state of our bus system, LRT is needed as it is currently planned (only implemented faster). Cancelling it and starting over in the hopes it can be built faster and cheaper in the future is pointless. It is needed now. The lands north of the transitway to the river west of downtown, plus city centre and Bayview yards, could accommodate a huge number of people, and would be served by this line as soon as phase 1 opens.

Sorry, it's just exasperating to have people advocate for more sprawl and more cars on the road to protect their mental bubble of living in a small town.

[S-Man]

Note: this will be last rant regarding this scenario which apparently never happens. October has just become self-control month for me!

[amanfromnowhere]

small step in right direction...
From OpenFile Ottawa:

It looks like the William Street Pedestrian Square will become permanent in April 2012.
http://ottawa.openfile.ca/blog/curator-b...strian-area-should-become-permanent-2012

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

...When a developer is too scared to propose a building over 27 stories ANYWHERE in the core we have a problem. Time and patience, let's see what happens in five years!

I realize this is a forum for skyscraper fans, but I wonder how much demand really exists for taller buildings in Ottawa. Claridge puts up about one 20+ story building a year, all of the other developers combined probably average 1-2 per year (despite a decade-long real estate boom). Downtown Ottawa seems to have about 5 approved office buildings without shovels in the ground. Ottawa has zero HQs of large companies who might want a marquee building, and I doubt the government is going to be in the skyscraper business.

I'm sure if there were fewer restrictions then some of those 25 storey buildings would be a little higher, but I really doubt there is a lineup of developers being held back by zoning laws (as opposed to economic considerations).

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Harley613

The baby boomers are getting old and they seem to be the predominant generation of NIMBY's, and they are on every street and in almost every seat in city council

.

Just for the record--I am a baby boomer--a leading edge baby boomer to be exact ( that means born in the first cohort of BBs)

I DO favour intensfication, taller buildings here and there, improved transit--light rail and a GO type train for the valley, CFL and pro soccer at LP with the city/OSEG partnership---more concerts , arts, and entertainment in Ottawa--more noise because we are living in a bigger city now and noise comes with the territory.

If I did not want the amenties, and the noise of a big city, I would move to a retirement home in Elliot Lake, as some retirees have.

A more vibrant Ottawa--BRING IT ON!

Yours truly.
LeadingEdgeBoomer

P.S--I get my first OAS payment in December--Yeah!

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I realize this is a forum for skyscraper fans, but I wonder how much demand really exists for taller buildings in Ottawa. Claridge puts up about one 20+ story building a year, all of the other developers combined probably average 1-2 per year (despite a decade-long real estate boom). Downtown Ottawa seems to have about 5 approved office buildings without shovels in the ground. Ottawa has zero HQs of large companies who might want a marquee building, and I doubt the government is going to be in the skyscraper business.

I'm sure if there were fewer restrictions then some of those 25 storey buildings would be a little higher, but I really doubt there is a lineup of developers being held back by zoning laws (as opposed to economic considerations).

There are some hq of fair size companys plus there are some up and comming companys that could be very big in the next 5-10 years plus ottawa is home to a fair amount of medium size head quarters..

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by reidjr

There are some hq of fair size companys plus there are some up and comming companys that could be very big in the next 5-10 years plus ottawa is home to a fair amount of medium size head quarters..

Not to mention regional headquarters. Ottawa is "The City" for most people in eastern Ontario and parts of southwestern Quebec.

[S-Man]

LeadingEdgeBoomer: Right on! With cities come needs for transit and entertainment close at hand; not hard to understand, but....

[amanfromnowhere]

Does anybody know what this application is for:

http://app01.ottawa.ca/postingplans/appDetails.jsf?lang=en&appId=__8UW8OR

SoBa?

[amanfromnowhere]

Originally Posted by amanfromnowhere

Does anybody know what this application is for:

http://app01.ottawa.ca/postingplans/appDetails.jsf?lang=en&appId=__8UW8OR

SoBa?

ok, found.... thanks google:
SoBa Condominiums, Bank Street and 203 Catherine Street, Ottawa Ontario

[phil235]

Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer

Harley613

.

Just for the record--I am a baby boomer--a leading edge baby boomer to be exact ( that means born in the first cohort of BBs)

I DO favour intensfication, taller buildings here and there, improved transit--light rail and a GO type train for the valley, CFL and pro soccer at LP with the city/OSEG partnership---more concerts , arts, and entertainment in Ottawa--more noise because we are living in a bigger city now and noise comes with the territory.

If I did not want the amenties, and the noise of a big city, I would move to a retirement home in Elliot Lake, as some retirees have.

A more vibrant Ottawa--BRING IT ON!

Yours truly.
LeadingEdgeBoomer

P.S--I get my first OAS payment in December--Yeah!

Those comments are awesome. As tempting as it is after watching the "Friends" in action, we do need to be careful not to paint an entire group with the same brush.

[McC]

Originally Posted by phil235

we do need to be careful not to paint an entire group with the same brush.

imagine that

[amanfromnowhere]

Another article about Catherine Street intensification:

Condos could choke out affordable housing, groups say
Friday, 14 October 2011
By Marcus Guido

Published in : Centretown News, News

Before a possible boom in condominium development on Catherine Street, some Centretown organizations are questioning the effect too many new buildings may have on neighbourhood housing.

In addition to the newly revealed, 19-storey SoBa condominium on Catherine Street set for completion in 2014, Fortress Real Capital and Lamb Development Corp. are working together to build the Gotham condo at Lyon and Gloucester streets, which should be finished next year.

The Toronto-area companies have also expressed interest in two more properties in SoBa’s area, but have not released details.

This summer, the city indicated plans to intensify Catherine Street and the surrounding area by allowing the development of 20 to 30-storey buildings, says Jawad Rathore, Fortress Real Capital’s chief strategic officer.

The SoBa building will help revitalize Catherine Street, he says.

“With more people living there, there’s going to be more reason for the area to be busy at night and not just during work hours,” says Rathore. “It’s not too far from downtown and not too far from the Glebe. It’s a winner that people are going to love.”

He isn’t the only one who says he looks forward to seeing more condos in Centretown.

“More residents mean a larger market for businesses, which then move in to service the larger population, contributing to the (area’s) revitalization,” says Jordan Charbonneau, acting president of the Centretown Citizens Community Association.

The development of more condos is an example of how cities are evolving to accommodate people who want to be part of densely-populated communities, he says.

But condos shouldn’t be the only housing options in the neighbourhood, he adds.

“Giving people choice is a good thing,” he says. “So by having rental units, condos and fully detached housing in our community, all Centretowners benefit.”

Another local organization says it’s worried there could eventually be a lack of affordable housing options.

“There certainly needs to be some way of preserving a balance between rental apartments and condos,” says Raymond Sullivan, executive director of housing for the Centretown Citizens Ottawa Corporation.

The corporation is the driving force behind the Beaver Barracks – an affordable rental housing project on Metcalfe Street and Argyle Avenue.

Completion of three more buildings, including one on Catherine Street, is expected next spring.

With more land being dedicated to condominium projects, less can be used to build inexpensive housing, says Sullivan.

“Even if some condos are modestly priced, coming up with a down payment, or getting a mortgage from a bank, can be an obstacle for a lot of low-income households,” he argues.

And since most condos are made up of bachelor and one-bedroom units, he adds, they are of no use to families in need of a home.

http://centretownnewsonline.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2614&Itemid=94

[amanfromnowhere]

This one is from cbc:

Condo construction, sales boom in Ottawa
Ottawa residents need only crane their necks up to see the city is in the midst of a condominium boom but at least one city planner says while condos are booming, new rental buildings are virtually non-existent.
New condo projects are breaking ground, going up and selling out not only in centretown but also in neighbourhoods like Westboro, Little Italy and New Edinburgh.

Stanley Wilder, the city's housing policy planner, put together a map of development for a period covering 2003-08 on the city's website.

Since then, he said many of the projects in development at the time have sold out and some are expanding.

"570 Laurier West, 120 units, those are gone, sold out," said Wilder, ticking off the list. "412 Nepean, 33 units, gone, sold...445 Laurier West...105 units sold and now re-selling."

About 20 of the 30-odd developments from that older list have been built and sold out, said Wilder, and that does not include many developments that have sprouted up since, including projects by developers like Mastercraft Starwood, Domicile and Urbandale.

Downtown Ottawa is undergoing intensification with the influx of new condominiums being built or already standing. (CBC)
Ottawa's downtown core undergoing intensification
Carleton architecture professor Benjamin Gianni said the intensification in the city's core has been surprising and mostly encouraging.

"Every time I see a crane go up I think that has to be the absolute last one, then I find four more the next, ten more the next year," said Gianni.

Ottawa's self-styled condo queen, Marnie Bennett, who says she has sold more than 3,000 condo units in the past three years, says there is a shift in the market as people line up to buy.

"It's a storm," said Bennett at a cocktail soiree she hosted for some 400 clients. "Everyone is looking for that housing style it's great...in Westboro condo development is going crazy, so you can see it spreading. People are looking to live in condos."

The Cathedral Hill condo development at Sparks and Bay is one of the new kids on the block. It only took a weekend for buyers to scoop up 70 per cent of the units on offer.

Different motivations to scooping up new condos
First-time condo buyer Hal Pruden said he is moving in because it is close to work and offers him a low maintenance lifestyle.

"I didn't want to be shovelling snow in winter and raking leaves in the fall," said Pruden.

While people looking to move closer to downtown are moving into condos, these aren't necessarily the same people who are buying the condominium units.

'Every time I see a crane go up I think that has to be the absolute last one, then I find four more the next, ten more the next year.'
—Benjamin Gianni, architecture professorMany of the people CBC spoke with at Bennett's party said they were buying to rent out and considered the properties investments they considered safe given volatility in the stock market.

"In the last two years I've seen that the average annual increase in my [ten] properties has been about $20,000 per unit," said Bruce Dwyer.

"In two years that $200,000 in equity growth, so that's pretty significant when you are talking a couple million dollars in real estate. That's a ten per cent gain on your investment over a two-year period. Where did we get that in the mutual fund market?"

Rental buildings are going extinct
The growth in condominium development, however, has not been matched by similar rental developments. Stanley Wilder said while the number of condos went up in the last year, not a single rental building was constructed.

"It's more attractive for a condominium developer to build a condominium, sell it and walk away," said Wilder.

The significant downside to this is that condominium units can be expensive to rent.

"At the present time its difficult to find rental property that's affordable and a person would want to live in," said Wilder.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/21/ottawa-condo-boom.html

Like this comment:

Sad to see such poor planning...can't see the Parliament buildings anymore! Developers rule, as always!.

[S-Man]

What view of the Parliament buildings? You mean the view that was blocked by buildings built in the 1970s? Do people live in reality here? New buildings built behind other buildings won't make the one in front transparent.

But yes, there is a dire need for rental buildings. Not everyone makes enough to pay $500 in condo fees on top of the condo cost every month. It seems Ottawa is trying to drive out 'undesirables' from its population, but that's probably just paranoia talking.

[amanfromnowhere]

Originally Posted by S-Man

What view of the Parliament buildings? You mean the view that was blocked by buildings built in the 1970s?

that's not my comment! i found it so funny so i decided to share it:-)