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  #2341  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2011, 6:37 AM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
They do? Really? What building? And is it historic? If it is, they will never get away with it.
Per the Downtown News on April 30, 2010

http://www.ladowntownnews.com/news/broad...ddfc92c-cd07-5c69-ad04-8a89d48cb793.html

"The garage has long been a chief desire of some theater owners on Broadway. In particular the Delijani family, which owns the Los Angeles, the Palace, the State and the Tower theaters, have pushed for the city to build and pay for such a facility, claiming that existing area parking is insufficient for large nighttime crowds.

As part of the Broadway effort, Huizar pursued a $52 million garage plan. The intent was to purchase four existing properties for approximately $27 million, and spend $25 million to convert them into a single structure with 300 parking spaces."


Can you believe this BS? See what I said.......how can Artwalk sustain 40,000 when NO NEW PARKING was built? It's because there IS SUFFICIENT CAPACITY. This whole arguement of parking, parking, parking, parking, parking, etc... costs the City money and is a tremendous WASTE of resources. To say we need more parking, is going back to the 1960s frame of thinking.

Plus, why are we encouraging people to drive at now $4/gallon? What's going to happen at $8/gallon in 2020? Cars, in the future, will be for the rich...that's unfortunately who will be able to primarily afford driving on the asphalt. Imagine if we could spend that $52 million to build additional entrance portals for the 7th Pershing Square station at 6th/Hill (I understand there is a knock-out panel there).
     
     
  #2342  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2011, 6:43 AM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Back to parking again.

SM and Pasadena are the most successful DT revializations. They each provide enormouos amounts of parking, as do Glendale and others. Venice is tiny in comparison. Conversely, cities as diverse as Beverly Hills and San Jose found that DT business dropped dramatically when they stopped subsidizing parking.

Per Huizar's office, parking is the biggest issue DT, at the top of the list for residents, landlords, retailers and potential investors and builders. That is, everyone who is actually voting with their time and money. The art walk crowd is hardly the type of person that retailers and restaurants want DT. They are looking for people with money, not a frat party for aging slackers.

I agree that there is available parking downtown. But part of marketing an area for shoppers is to make it easy. One way of doing this is to make sure there is plenty of safe, automated parking at consistent, reasonable rates (specifically in the plans for SM and Pasadena and a no-brainer for any shopping center). This boils down again to do we want DT to be a real center for the city with retail, theaters, bars, clubs, restaurants, etc. (ala Union Sq.) or just to serve local needs (Famima, Walgreens, donuts). People really are not going to take the subway to do their shopping or for dressier occasions.
We're not saying "no parking" is required. Some parking is needed. What we're saying, is there IS SUFFICIENT PARKING readily available. Drive on Spring, Main and Broadway and count the amount of parking garages (hint: it's greater than the # of garages in Pasadena, Santa Monica or Venice combined).

What we're saying is that let's work on revitalizing what we have existing and stop giving away even more space to the private automobile. Cities have been destroyed with the amount of buildings lost to parking lots. It's quite sad.

And again, it's NOT parking that brings people, it's the attractions.

Anybody want to party in Santa Clarita or the Valley this coming Friday night? I heard there's THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of parking spaces and NO TRAFFIC. That's what everybody wants, right? Hence why Kansas City, Austin, Santa Fe, Charleston, etc.. are the bastions of economic activity and not New York, Chicago, Paris, London, Tokyo, LA, etc..where there is constant traffic and "no parking". Right?
     
     
  #2343  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2011, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim View Post
We're not saying "no parking" is required. Some parking is needed. What we're saying, is there IS SUFFICIENT PARKING readily available. Drive on Spring, Main and Broadway and count the amount of parking garages (hint: it's greater than the # of garages in Pasadena, Santa Monica or Venice combined).

What we're saying is that let's work on revitalizing what we have existing and stop giving away even more space to the private automobile. Cities have been destroyed with the amount of buildings lost to parking lots. It's quite sad.

And again, it's NOT parking that brings people, it's the attractions.

Anybody want to party in Santa Clarita or the Valley this coming Friday night? I heard there's THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of parking spaces and NO TRAFFIC. That's what everybody wants, right? Hence why Kansas City, Austin, Santa Fe, Charleston, etc.. are the bastions of economic activity and not New York, Chicago, Paris, London, Tokyo, LA, etc..where there is constant traffic and "no parking". Right?
It is certainly not parking that attracts people; however, it is also not lack of parking space that attracts them. Fairer to say that cheap and easy parking encourages visitors to experience the pleasures a city has to offer.

In DT LA the move (as set forth in the Bringing Back Broadway appendixes) is toward rationalizing and improving parking in DT, not to building wholly new parking structures. The point is to bring a comfort level to people who could be lured to DT. Again, I note SM and Pasadena, where extensive lots are quite full during demand peaks. SM Place just added massive new parking structures, basically right at the future Expo stop.

The one exception is the Bway theater proposal parking structure. This targets two buildings that are not of historic interest (that is, low-rise modern junkers) for conversion into parking convenient to 5 of the historic Bway theaters. This would seem to be a no-brainer since the demand for monthly parking permits is strong enough to fill it; and if and when the theaters are active, it will provide parking for them.

What makes you think London, NY, SF, etc., don't have parking near entertainment?

SF: Union Sq. has 5 levels of parking directly below it. Eight more levels two blocks away. A parking structure a full city block in size 4 blocks away in Soma. SF Phil and Opera have multiple stories of parking the size of 2 city blocks. Almost every hotel in DT SF has multiple levels of parking or subsidizes parking nearby.

Lincoln Center NY (huge parking); the Barbican London (beyond huge parking; 4 lanes of valet parking service); South Bank London: huge parking; the theater district has thousands of spaces, available for pre-booking.
     
     
  #2344  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 5:51 AM
LosAngelesDreamin LosAngelesDreamin is offline
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Originally Posted by pesto View Post
It is certainly not parking that attracts people; however, it is also not lack of parking space that attracts them. Fairer to say that cheap and easy parking encourages visitors to experience the pleasures a city has to offer.

In DT LA the move (as set forth in the Bringing Back Broadway appendixes) is toward rationalizing and improving parking in DT, not to building wholly new parking structures. The point is to bring a comfort level to people who could be lured to DT. Again, I note SM and Pasadena, where extensive lots are quite full during demand peaks. SM Place just added massive new parking structures, basically right at the future Expo stop.

The one exception is the Bway theater proposal parking structure. This targets two buildings that are not of historic interest (that is, low-rise modern junkers) for conversion into parking convenient to 5 of the historic Bway theaters. This would seem to be a no-brainer since the demand for monthly parking permits is strong enough to fill it; and if and when the theaters are active, it will provide parking for them.

What makes you think London, NY, SF, etc., don't have parking near entertainment?

SF: Union Sq. has 5 levels of parking directly below it. Eight more levels two blocks away. A parking structure a full city block in size 4 blocks away in Soma. SF Phil and Opera have multiple stories of parking the size of 2 city blocks. Almost every hotel in DT SF has multiple levels of parking or subsidizes parking nearby.

Lincoln Center NY (huge parking); the Barbican London (beyond huge parking; 4 lanes of valet parking service); South Bank London: huge parking; the theater district has thousands of spaces, available for pre-booking.
If LA wants to build more parking garages, they should put it underground... and have new retail, restaurants etc etc on top of it at street level. I'm fine with that.
     
     
  #2345  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 2:21 PM
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Does the Carson Palmer news change people's opinion about bringing the Raiders back to LA? My guess is much more people are sold on bringing the team to Farmer's Field. Al Davis passing, somewhat high-profile USC Heisman winner at QB, on field success - seems like the team's culture is moving in a positive direction.
     
     
  #2346  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 3:06 PM
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I don't necessarily believe that despite all of these thing that has happened to the Raiders this year, that it's a sign that they are on their way back to LA. I would rather have the Rams or the Chargers to be honest. I think the stigma that was the Raiders and their fans during the 80's and early 90's hasn't left Los Angeles.

I don't know if any of you saw this but about a year ago, Ice Cube made a film telling the story of what the Raiders meant to the city of Los Angeles and how they changed hip hop, and sports culture (remember, the LA Kings changed their uniforms from purple and gold to silver and black because of the Raiders). It was called Straight Outta LA and it was actually very good. He even talks to Al Davis and a few Raider greats. If you haven't seen it, do so.

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  #2347  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin View Post
If LA wants to build more parking garages, they should put it underground... and have new retail, restaurants etc etc on top of it at street level. I'm fine with that.
I agree that underground is preferable. But it is also very expensive and I doubt that DT warrants that sort of expenditure. I would guess that banning parking uses for most open lots and building multi-story structures above or behind retail would be more practical economically.

5th and Mission, and Sutter-Stockton are above ground as is much of the hotel parking in NY or SF. SF Opera and Barbican and other huge underground lots are normally put in in conjunction with the construction of the relevant venue. Thus, the Broad parking makes sense, as will the proposals for huge parking at the renovated Union Station.
     
     
  #2348  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 6:23 PM
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Raiders: Carson Palmer will be on his last legs by the time the Raiders get back to LA (same for Philip Rivers, I'm afraid). Sam Bradford has a real chance to have some good years in LA.

Forget Adrian Peterson as well. Already on the downhill.

The idea of the Raiders cleaning up their image is an interesting one. You would think that moving to LA would make you focus more on corporate and entertainment clientele than when you are in Oakland (which doesn't have the corporate image of SF or Silicon Valley).
     
     
  #2349  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 7:46 PM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin View Post
If LA wants to build more parking garages, they should put it underground... and have new retail, restaurants etc etc on top of it at street level. I'm fine with that.
There's already a 2,000 spot parking garage underneath Pershing Square that has destroyed the character of the park. There's a knock-out panel for a pedestrian entrance on 6th/Hill, which is a block from Broadway.

Again, no reason to build more parking in Los Angeles. There IS a sufficient supply of parking. The Historic Core went from a deserted area after 5 pm in the 2000 - 2005 era and is now BOOMING with people...........and NOT a single public parking garage/lot was built or opened. Hence, parking is NOT the answer.
     
     
  #2350  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 7:57 PM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Here's a good analysis of why parking requirements are the TRUE reason that downtown LA lacks compared to other world-wide cities:

http://shoup.bol.ucla.edu/People,Parking,Cities.pdf

Here are some important passages.

"Take, for example, the different treatment given by Los Angeles and San Francisco to their concert halls. For a downtown concert hall, Los Angeles requires, as a minimum, fifty times more parking than San Francisco allows as its maximum. Thus the San Francisco Symphony built its home, Louise Davies Hall, without a parking garage, while Disney Hall, the new home of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, did not open until seven years after its parking garage was built. Disney Hall’s six-level, 2,188-space underground garage cost $110 million to build (about $50,000 per space). Financially troubled Los Angeles County, which built the garage, went into debt to finance it, expecting that parking revenues would repay the borrowed money. But the garage was completed in 1996, and Disney Hall—which suffered from a budget less grand than its vision—became knotted in delays and didn’t open until late 2003. During the seven years in between, parking revenue fell far short of debt payments (few people park in an underground structure if there is nothing above it) and the county, by that point nearly bankrupt, had to subsidize the garage even as it laid off employees."

“The more downtown is broken up and interspersed with parking lots and garages,” Jane Jacobs argued in 1961, “the duller and deader it becomes … and there is nothing more repellent than a dead downtown.”

Pesto, this is for you"In the end, what sets downtown LA apart from other cities is not its sprawl, or its human density, but its high human density combined with its high parking density. If you took all of the parking spaces in the Los Angeles CBD and spread them horizontally in a surface lot, they would cover 81 percent of the CBD’s land area. We call this ratio—of parking area to total land area—the “parking coverage rate,” and it is higher in downtown LA than in any other downtown on earth. In San Francisco, for instance, the coverage rate is 31 percent, and in New York it is only 18 percent."

"Downtown LA has more than three times as many parking spaces as Phoenix, but it also has five times as many jobs. Compared to San Francisco, LA has fewer jobs but more than twice as many parking spaces. As a result, its parking coverage rate, at 81 percent, is higher than both of the other cities combined. Los Angeles is both car-oriented and dense; it approaches the human density of San Francisco but dilutes it with the parking supply of a suburb. Any benefits Los Angeles might derive from its density are offset by its relentless accommodation of the automobile."

As you said Pesto, there was more parking availability in NY or SF? Please provide the support.

Thus, it's key to note that the increase/need for parking is absolutely false to make a vibrant center. Parking is our # 1 urban killer in Los Angeles. The reason Pasadena, Santa Monica, Venice, Hollywood, Spring Street, 7th street, etc... are vibrant are due to late night restaurants, bars, etc.. You can put all the parking in the world (i.e. Santa Clarita and the Valley), but if you are lacking the restaurants, bars, clubs..prime destinations, it's just a deadzone. Forget spending money on parking, like they want to spend $52 million to tear down more buildings for parking for Broadway, which is totally irrational, use it to build a new station portal for the new 2nd/Broadway station on the Downtown Regional Connector. Spend money on people, no more on the private automobile. Hasn't our downtown been destroyed enough?
     
     
  #2351  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2011, 8:13 PM
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@LAofAnaheim:

You beat me to it! I was going to post the link for Donald Shoup's article, "People, Parking, and Cities." This and "Cruising for Parking," should be required reading for anyone interested in transportation and urban planning.

It is amazing how people cling to parking. Here in DC, there is a proposal for a 60-unit condo almost directly next to the metro station in a walkable neighorhood. The developer does not want to build any parking on-site (I think there is sufficient curbside parking in the neighborhood) and the local NIMBYS are going absolutely crazy about this.

LAofAnaheim:
Quote:
Forget spending money on parking, like they want to spend $52 million to tear down more buildings for parking for Broadway, which is totally irrational, use it to build a new station portal for the new 2nd/Broadway station on the Downtown Regional Connector. Spend money on people, no more on the private automobile. Hasn't our downtown been destroyed enough?
The absolute last thing a local government should be spending money on and subsidizing is parking. Vertical parking garages cost $30,000 - $40,000 per space to build and subterranean spaces can cost $50,000 to build. More importantly, it is absolutely insane that LA County is (correctly) spending billions (tens of billions?) of dollars on the 30/10 Plan and at the very same time, LA is spending over $50M to make driving even easier, undermining this great investment in transit.
     
     
  #2352  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 2:01 AM
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There's already a 2,000 spot parking garage underneath Pershing Square that has destroyed the character of the park. There's a knock-out panel for a pedestrian entrance on 6th/Hill, which is a block from Broadway.

Again, no reason to build more parking in Los Angeles. There IS a sufficient supply of parking. The Historic Core went from a deserted area after 5 pm in the 2000 - 2005 era and is now BOOMING with people...........and NOT a single public parking garage/lot was built or opened. Hence, parking is NOT the answer.
And the lot outside of the Rowan...formerly a surface lot...is being ripped apart for a park. Invest in the Streetcar which will disperse parking all over Downtown.
     
     
  #2353  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 2:59 AM
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Here are some construction photos on New Genesis at Curbed:

http://la.curbed.com/archives/2011/10/ne...n_stories_looking_big_on_main_street.php
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  #2354  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 5:24 AM
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Thus the San Francisco Symphony built its home, Louise Davies Hall, without a parking garage
interesting that you (or the article you pasted), mentioned that bldg, cuz a few months ago I was doing some google street viewing of the area around davies hall & was astounded to see how a major corner of the lot it's on looks no better than this....


maps.google.com

^ that's one deadzone that would be embarrassing even by LA standards.

however, I do agree that minimum parking requirements in LA can be overdone & end up making it harder for projs to pencil out or to even get past the drawing board.

but I also recall reading that one major reason it was tougher for owners of old bldgs who wanted to convert them into lofts was not due to city codes but cuz banks wouldn't make loans to remodel bldgs like the ones along broadway without more parking space. iow, possible funders were worried that potential customers----or homebuyers----wouldn't want to buy or rent in a bldg if parking was too much of a hassle.

the worse thing nowadays actually isn't so much parking codes or height restrictions, or transit this or that, or things like that, but that the economy is so flat right now, that everything is getting bogged down. Seems like the last time we in LA----in this thread----could seriously deal with projs like parkfifth, the glass tower or park central was a million yrs ago.
     
     
  #2355  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 5:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
Here are some construction photos on New Genesis at Curbed:

http://la.curbed.com/archives/2011/10/ne...n_stories_looking_big_on_main_street.php
Perfect density. I'd much rather fill in Downtown with mid-rise buildings like that than encourage height for the sake of having an enlarged skyline. The height should only come when there is an actual need for it.
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  #2356  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 5:38 AM
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^ You mean low-rises.

And yes we shouldn't overbuild. But i would like to see new buildings that, while not overly tall, are tall enough to leave a visible impact on a skyline photo shot. In other words, buildings in the 30-40 story range.

Besides how would you know when there's demand for a taller building or not?
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Last edited by JDRCRASH; Oct 19, 2011 at 5:49 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
     
     
  #2357  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 8:29 AM
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What I don't understand is why not just build a 30 something story apartment tower? Apartments are in right now, and so is downtown. Just put two and two together, and there should be a match. All around the country, I have been watching news that new apartments towers are going to start construction. Why is L.A. always so late to the high-rise building party?
     
     
  #2358  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 8:39 AM
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Downtown Los Angeles Real Estate Development: When do we finally grow up?

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Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
What I don't understand is why not just build a 30 something story apartment tower? Apartments are in right now, and so is downtown. Just put two and two together, and there should be a match. All around the country, I have been watching news that new apartments towers are going to start construction. Why is L.A. always so late to the high-rise building party?
I didn't want to jump into this conversation and I haven't spoken here in ages, but Illithid Dude, you are completely and thoroughly right here. Look. It's too bad that it has to be a process in L.A. and downtown, but it's happening. Question. When does the next forest of buildings, residential and commercial get built? Find developers who want to build there, invest capital and expect a good return on their investment. It's imperative that this happens for many reasons, the most significant being the long term health of the DTLA economy. Time will tell what happens here and when, but we want it now and development and dollars to get dirt dug and concrete poured can't come any quicker.
     
     
  #2359  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 3:48 PM
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What I don't understand is why not just build a 30 something story apartment tower? Apartments are in right now, and so is downtown. Just put two and two together, and there should be a match. All around the country, I have been watching news that new apartments towers are going to start construction. Why is L.A. always so late to the high-rise building party?
Simple: The Historic Core. There is a slew of old buildings that are still either underused and/or totally empty. It wouldn't make much sense in building all these brand new apartment/condo towers when we already have a stockpile of fine and dandy early 20th century buildings.
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  #2360  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2011, 4:28 PM
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Here's a good analysis of why parking requirements are the TRUE reason that downtown LA lacks compared to other world-wide cities:

http://shoup.bol.ucla.edu/People,Parking,Cities.pdf

Here are some important passages.

"Take, for example, the different treatment given by Los Angeles and San Francisco to their concert halls. For a downtown concert hall, Los Angeles requires, as a minimum, fifty times more parking than San Francisco allows as its maximum. Thus the San Francisco Symphony built its home, Louise Davies Hall, without a parking garage, while Disney Hall, the new home of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, did not open until seven years after its parking garage was built. Disney Hall’s six-level, 2,188-space underground garage cost $110 million to build (about $50,000 per space). Financially troubled Los Angeles County, which built the garage, went into debt to finance it, expecting that parking revenues would repay the borrowed money. But the garage was completed in 1996, and Disney Hall—which suffered from a budget less grand than its vision—became knotted in delays and didn’t open until late 2003. During the seven years in between, parking revenue fell far short of debt payments (few people park in an underground structure if there is nothing above it) and the county, by that point nearly bankrupt, had to subsidize the garage even as it laid off employees."

“The more downtown is broken up and interspersed with parking lots and garages,” Jane Jacobs argued in 1961, “the duller and deader it becomes … and there is nothing more repellent than a dead downtown.”

Pesto, this is for you"In the end, what sets downtown LA apart from other cities is not its sprawl, or its human density, but its high human density combined with its high parking density. If you took all of the parking spaces in the Los Angeles CBD and spread them horizontally in a surface lot, they would cover 81 percent of the CBD’s land area. We call this ratio—of parking area to total land area—the “parking coverage rate,” and it is higher in downtown LA than in any other downtown on earth. In San Francisco, for instance, the coverage rate is 31 percent, and in New York it is only 18 percent."

"Downtown LA has more than three times as many parking spaces as Phoenix, but it also has five times as many jobs. Compared to San Francisco, LA has fewer jobs but more than twice as many parking spaces. As a result, its parking coverage rate, at 81 percent, is higher than both of the other cities combined. Los Angeles is both car-oriented and dense; it approaches the human density of San Francisco but dilutes it with the parking supply of a suburb. Any benefits Los Angeles might derive from its density are offset by its relentless accommodation of the automobile."

As you said Pesto, there was more parking availability in NY or SF? Please provide the support.

Thus, it's key to note that the increase/need for parking is absolutely false to make a vibrant center. Parking is our # 1 urban killer in Los Angeles. The reason Pasadena, Santa Monica, Venice, Hollywood, Spring Street, 7th street, etc... are vibrant are due to late night restaurants, bars, etc.. You can put all the parking in the world (i.e. Santa Clarita and the Valley), but if you are lacking the restaurants, bars, clubs..prime destinations, it's just a deadzone. Forget spending money on parking, like they want to spend $52 million to tear down more buildings for parking for Broadway, which is totally irrational, use it to build a new station portal for the new 2nd/Broadway station on the Downtown Regional Connector. Spend money on people, no more on the private automobile. Hasn't our downtown been destroyed enough?
A quick glance shows that the author of the article is an idiot or has an absurd agenda in mind. Davies Symphony Hall is adjacent to 3 massive underground lots and near many other surfaces lots. The SF Opera (next door), Civic Center Garage and the Performing Arts garage (across the street) have thousands of places and often sell out way before performances. No additional parking was needed for Davies since it was already there.

And is he trying to be funny with regards to Disney Parking? Of course, the local parking lot was not doing very well BEFORE the Disney was completed. This guy is a just a hack.

If you do a quick google of Barbican or South Bank parking in London or Lincoln Center in NY, you will find their guide to parking. I certainly never claimed that there was MORE parking availability in London or NY than LA. But I do claim that each of those cities built parking at entertainment centers and still has a tremendous shortage of parking and has instituted reservation and season pass systems in areas near entertainment venues. And, of course, this is in spite of subway systems far more comprehensive than LA.

For DT not to build parking structures when there is such a large amount of available land (usually surface lots) with no demand for any alternative use seems a like a lack of forethought.
     
     
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