Regina | New Mosaic Stadium

[Dillweed]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Montreal just expanded theirs to 25k at the start of this year (they wanted 30k I believe, but groups were against that I think due to where the stadium is.

As far as Grey Cups go... now that it is turning into such a cash cow and centrepiece to the league, I think they will be far more likely in the future to be wanting to hold it in the largest venues possible as often as possible to give more of a big game feel. So as much as not building too big of a venue is an important thing to consider, I think not building too small of a venue is just as important. Building too small of a venue would be very short sighted. Regina was able to sell 50k+ tickets to both Grey Cups held here, so if we are unable to add enough expansion seating to get close to that number, we are being really short sighted... with the growth our province is finally experiencing, it should be pretty much a given that we would be able to sell at least that many for future Grey cups hosted here.

Regarding the MTS centre/Jets comparison. I'm glad they have their team back, but I'm unsure how long having the second highest prices in the league will be sustainable. Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto all have much more money than does Winnipeg both in terms of personal wealth and corporate wealth (I don't really think that point needs to be debated... it's pretty much a given based off population alone), so I just wonder how long people will be able to afford to fill the arena every game or if in a few years the price might start to affect attendance.

And I don't think the Riders have much chance of going too much higher with ticket prices. Our prices are already quite high compared to the rest of the league (with the exception of Montreal), and the same issue is present for Regina as I just mentioned in the paragraph before about Winnipeg. Granted there are fewer dates to worry about with football... but eventually you will reach the tipping point where the price will rise above what people are willing to pay, and you'll have to bring prices to more normal levels. I think we are far better off having a greater supply of more affordable tickets than a restricted supply of very expensive tickets. Lately the Riders Organization has really been going after the "family" type spectator, and pricing too high will remove this group as not many would be able to afford 4+ tickets to more than a game or two a year.

I agree with everything you say. I think the market indeed is far better off having a greater supply of cheaper tickets. I think 35K permanent seats are about the right size for venues in cities like Regina & Winnipeg.

But without at least some sort of design what would allow a maximum capacity in the neighborhood of 50K. I think the city is limiting itself for large scale events like the Grey Cup.

Some would argue that how often are you going to fill 50K seats in the course of a regular season in the CFL or for other events. Even in Vancouver the Lions typically average about 30K per home game in the regular season.

But thats why you build a stadium in Regina & Winnipeg with permanent seating of 35K. Winnipeg's stadium is just too small. Maybe Winnipeg didn't even bid for the 2013 Grey Cup I dunno. But it seems odd that with their stadium being completed next year. That the league wouldn't showcase it by awarding Winnipeg the Grey Cup in 2013.

Instead they award it to Regina which has a junky old stadium but can be expanded to 50K via temporary grand stands. Whatever Regina does build whether it is open air or retractable dome. I would hope they would have the foresight to build something that would give them something close to 50K seating capacity with temporary seating.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

The extra seating will go in the upper level concourse in the endzones as shown in this and other diagrams from the original feasibilty study.

There are several inconsistencies with the above designs and diagrams.

1. For example, while much of the feasibility report is based on a facility with 33,000 permanent seats, the diagram which you posted above has one for 38,000. Moreover, the concept drawing doesn't even jive with SCI's own information found a few pages later:

SCI, along with their engineering team, have designed the following concept for the Saskatchewan Sports & Entertainment Spectator Facility, with a capacity for 33,000 patrons, expandable to 45,000 within the building envelope

2. Perhaps even more telling, the concept drawing you posted (which is obviously sparse on details) estimates how many seats are going to be there using very basic calculations - no mention of stairs/rows/entryways, etc. It also notes that there will be an extra 22 rows to accomodate the extra 11,400 patrons (the expandible portion in the endzones, as you have mentioned). Assuming that the seats are 19" minimum and that rows are 24 seats max before having and aisle (both numbers are from this very same report), you can do some basic math and figure out that 11,400 extra seats in the dome is pushing it. 11,400/44 rows = 259 people per row. That is a large amount for upper-deck endzone seating by any standard - especially with approx 8 or 9 aisles mixed in. According to the diagram, the endzone temporary seating is about 200 feet wide (i.e. 200 foot wide rows). Those rows would have to be at least double that length (over 400 ft) to fit anywhere close to 259 people per row (assuming aisles and seats a minimum of 18" wide).

Either way, the picture you posted is one of the only areas where a 50,000 seat capacity is mentioned. Almost everywhere else, it states 33,000, expandable to 45,000...

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by UPP

As for Winnipeg, building a new park way out at the UofM goes completely against the trend over the past 20 years of central development.

any examples of downtown football stadiums that have successfully created urban renewal?

Originally Posted by Dillweed

Winnipeg's project has gone from $115, $160 to $190 million. And personally I will be surprised if the final priced tag is less than $200 million. And was in effect bailed out by the provincial government.

And to my mind the loan given the Blue Bombers is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. I would classify it as a government grant because I highly doubt the Bombers will ever fully pay it back and at some point the loan will be forgiven by the provincial government.

winnipeg's stadium didnt actually rise in cost...it was never $115...it was tendered at $190m....the other costs that were talked about in the beginning were just unfortunate political posturing and not based on reality.

i agree with your second point....i'm sure there will be an announcement some time in the future saying that the province has picked up the bomber's tab.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Bdog

^Where do you see these extra seats going?

it does seem unlikely....i would also be interested to know how they would handle the building code requirements for exiting and washroom counts when they add that many seats to an enclosed stadium that will need to use the existing concourse for access.

it will be tricky to say the least.

it is easy to add seats to an open ended stadium because people can be exited directly out on the sides and washrooms can be provided remote from the facility...this design would have to use the washrooms stairs and ramps that are built for 50% fewer people.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by trueviking

any examples of downtown football stadiums that have successfully created urban renewal?

I've never quite understood this notion that:

A) Stadium gets built on the rail yards
B) All of a sudden, developers flock to build condos and retail!

Exactly as you say TV - Where has this model been successful?

Conservative estimates by the Province itself had the Multi-purpose stadium hosting 31 events a year (of which the Riders brought in 79% of the revenue). Optimistic estimates were 71 events a year (of which the Riders still brought in 72% of the revenue). Let's say we meet half way - 51 events per year (one a week). In other words, other than the 10 Riders games, there isn't to much activity going on (in terms of pedestrian traffic, bringing in economic activity, etc).

http://www.globalnews.ca/canada/canada/n...g+in+bulk+of+dough/6442485663/story.html

So why would this be the catalyst for some huge housing/retail development spree ($1B+ aparently!!!) of which the private sector will pay 75%?

Do any of you honestly think a huge crowd will suddenly leap at the opportunity to live next to a blank wall with max 1 event per week? Where is the precedent? Where is this huge market for downtown condominiums coming from, when the high profile Capital Pointe has had enormous trouble getting off the ground? All of a sudden people will line up to live next to a giant brick wall? Are there a large contigent of Reginans who would prefer a stadium proximity condo than their own house in the suburbs, not even a 10 minute drive away (the price of a new build condo and a new house are comparable in Regina, although the condo is likely smaller). I don't follow - in my intensive involvement in this topic, I haven't seen anything like it. Not even in cities with 10x the population of Regina...

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Bdog

I've never quite understood this notion that:

A) Stadium gets built on the rail yards
B) All of a sudden, developers flock to build condos and retail!

Exactly as you say TV - Where has this model been successful?

Wasn't that the scenario that played out in Winnipeg around Polo Park when Canad Inns was built?

[CCF]

Originally Posted by Bdog

I've never quite understood this notion that:

A) Stadium gets built on the rail yards
B) All of a sudden, developers flock to build condos and retail!

Exactly as you say TV - Where has this model been successful?

Conservative estimates by the Province itself had the Multi-purpose stadium hosting 31 events a year (of which the Riders brought in 79% of the revenue). Optimistic estimates were 71 events a year (of which the Riders still brought in 72% of the revenue). Let's say we meet half way - 51 events per year (one a week). In other words, other than the 10 Riders games, there isn't to much activity going on (in terms of pedestrian traffic, bringing in economic activity, etc).

http://www.globalnews.ca/canada/canada/n...g+in+bulk+of+dough/6442485663/story.html

So why would this be the catalyst for some huge housing/retail development spree ($1B+ aparently!!!) of which the private sector will pay 75%?

Do any of you honestly think a huge crowd will suddenly leap at the opportunity to live next to a blank wall with max 1 event per week? Where is the precedent? Where is this huge market for downtown condominiums coming from, when the high profile Capital Pointe has had enormous trouble getting off the ground? All of a sudden people will line up to live next to a giant brick wall? Are there a large contigent of Reginans who would prefer a stadium proximity condo than their own house in the suburbs, not even a 10 minute drive away (the price of a new build condo and a new house are comparable in Regina, although the condo is likely smaller). I don't follow - in my intensive involvement in this topic, I haven't seen anything like it. Not even in cities with 10x the population of Regina...

I truly cannot understand why you are so passionate about this project....

We get it. You aren't in favour.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Wasn't that the scenario that played out in Winnipeg around Polo Park when Canad Inns was built?

There is virtually no housing in that area (other than the nearby residential neighbourhoods of single family housing that predate the stadium). Retail has been attracted to the area for various reasons (biggest mall in the city, largest retail area in the city, large industrial holdings condusive to big box development, a major intersection, etc...) - I don't think it has anything to do with the Stadium (and developers are more than pleased that the stadium will be gone - and the arena's already been demolished - to make more space available for retail)...

So no, I don't think the situations are remotely similar. Polo Park (for now) the major retail centre of our city - however, it's also a congested, parking lot wasteland. It's not a model to be replicated on valuable downtown land to be sure...

[osmo]

Field hockey, HS Football and Sask Party GM meetings don't count for events now. There is no precedent, because football Stadiums as urban generators is a crock. This issue has been beaten to death by us tho, stadium pumpers won't ever believe it till its too late. We pick on the Winnipeg folks to much, its bratty civic rivalry at its finest. I'm all ears to the PEG people because they got something going up and we don't. We don't understand how rare large projects like this are in Canada. Some third-world nations have better Stadium infrastructure for the most part than Canada does.

The Stade d'Angondjé is a stadium in Angondjé, a suburb of Libreville in Gabon. It is referred to as Stade de l'Amitié.[1] The stadium build is expected to take 20 months and will be funded by the Gabonaise and Chinese governments.
It is one of four stadiums to be used for the 2012 Africa Cup of Nations and is expected to host the competition final

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stade_d%27Angondj%C3%A9

Fiacco should call up Beijing /sarc

[wacko]

The solution is actually pretty straightforward. You build a 33,000-seat outdoor stadium, with room in the end zones to put temporary seating to expand to 50,000. This is also the most cost-effective option for us taxpayers who will be footing the bill. Let's get this done.

The biggest argument for a downtown site is to make it equally accessible from all points in the city. Other than that, I couldn't really care where the new stadium is located, so long as it's easy to get to and there's ample parking.

Don't count on the new stadium being a catalyst for urban renewal though. It's just a replacement for aging Mosaic Stadium, nothing more.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by CCF

I truly cannot understand why you are so passionate about this project....

We get it. You aren't in favour.

Envy. I'd be envious too if this was happening in Winnipeg.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by osmo

Field hockey, HS Football and Sask Party GM meetings don't count for events now. There is no precedent, because football Stadiums as urban generators is a crock.

The stadium is only one aspect of the proposal, it won't be the stadium alone that generates revilitization. And if what you say is true I wonder why the majority of businesses downtown and along Dewdney are in support of this project (actually I can't think of one who is against it), and why is RROC, Tourism Regina and Saskatchewan, the Warehouse Improvement Society, the RCOC, the entire city council, as well as the province in full support? Weird hey?

This issue has been beaten to death by us tho, stadium pumpers won't ever believe it till its too late. We pick on the Winnipeg folks to much, its bratty civic rivalry at its finest. I'm all ears to the PEG people because they got something going up and we don't.

The only reason we don't is because we are waiting on CP to finish their relocation, not a good idea to start construction before the previous tenants have vacated. And you have to remember that Winnipeg started their process much sooner than we did and they are building their nice new facility on a vacant lot.

We don't understand how rare large projects like this are in Canada. Some third-world nations have better Stadium infrastructure for the most part than Canada does.

I completely agree with this last statement, that is why I am so glad we have visionary leaders like Wall and Fiacco who are going to get this done! Strange hey that the NDP seems as though they aren't even going to make this an election issue.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by wacko

The solution is actually pretty straightforward. You build a 33,000-seat outdoor stadium, with room in the end zones to put temporary seating to expand to 50,000. This is also the most cost-effective option for us taxpayers who will be footing the bill. Let's get this done.

The biggest argument for a downtown site is to make it equally accessible from all points in the city. Other than that, I couldn't really care where the new stadium is located, so long as it's easy to get to and there's ample parking.

Don't count on the new stadium being a catalyst for urban renewal though. It's just a replacement for aging Mosaic Stadium, nothing more.

Will the demolition of the existing stadium and the construction of various levels of new housing in that area be considered urban renewal?

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

Envy from another city, it's blatantly obvious. I'd be envious too if this was happening in Winnipeg.

Do you honestly think that's what the debate is about? Envy? I guess we can't ask questions and bring up criticisms of anything without being envious

My question is, envious of what? There is at the moment no plan for this half-billion dollar fantasy; there is no funding earmarked for it; and there is no political apetite for it (at least not from the feds and less than ever from the province). As mentioned, the costs (according to the feasibility study) are out of date by a year.

You can continue to boost this project all you want Migs - But the questions remain. Where has this model been successful? Where is the money coming from? Why would this spur some sort of development bonanza? Where is the market for downtown condos next to a brick behemoth?

I'm sorry Migs, but I'm very happy with the stadium we're getting here. That's not to say I'm pleased with everything that's happened along the way - in fact, I've been the first to criticize or question certain elements (i.e. funding structure, process). However, my interest is in stadium development, funding, and the ways in which it relates to urban development. I've written about projects all over N.A., and have actually worked with Jennifer Keesmaat, who's firm's work on this project you praise.

All it takes is a brief glance over this thread (and the first thread) for the past 2 years Migs. Compare what you and I have said - who is more credible? You claimed done deals, huge private investments, guaranteed fed money, and said no more Grey Cup for Regina without a new stadium. Time after time you're claims (aparently backed by the big players) have been wrong. Meanwhile, I've been cautious. I stated the feds would not be involved (and they they'd be used as a scapegoat). Check. I stated that there was no done deal. Check. Hard to believe that this whole project fell through on the basis of the Feds not contributing $20M to $30M (which is precedent); if a project falls through because of a lack of 5% of the total budget, then a project like this will never fly (as construction inflation in the past year has already eaten up that 5%).

[thefourthtower]

Dont you get enough you keep repeating the same over and over for the last two years , it is almost like a hate agenda you keep pushing it upon us take care .

[tenteno2]

Originally Posted by Bdog

...Where is the market for downtown condos next to a brick behemoth?...

Regina has less that 1% rental vacancy and enormous demand for housing of all types. The demand is there, but maybe not for the luxury condos that Capital Pointe and the Gardens on Rose are proposing.

Beside a brick behemoth? The stadium redevelopment will be almost a kilometer away. Even development near Broad St will be no where close to "beside" the stadium.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by tenteno2

Regina has less that 1% rental vacancy and enormous demand for housing of all types. The demand is there, but maybe not for the luxury condos that Capital Pointe and the Gardens on Rose are proposing.

Beside a brick behemoth? The stadium redevelopment will be almost a kilometer away. Even development near Broad St will be no where close to "beside" the stadium.

I'm very familiar with the low rental vacancy rates across western Canada. Demand is there for affordable rentals, which will definitely not be built on that land. At maybe $150/psf for new build, I doubt there's going to be much investment in building rentals - and remember, although some people rent out their condos, you can't automatically make the link between low vacancy rates and new condo construction (condos are not apartments)...


As for housing beside a brick behemoth, I guess you aren't familiar with the Revitalize Regina concept? Condos are literally right next to the "Multi-purpose stadium's" walls: http://www.regina.ca/Page5403.aspx
I don't blame you though - the plans change so often it's hard to keep up...

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

What's your stake in this project? I haven't been following this thread much lately because its all been full of speculation, subjective opinions and ignorance but I am confused why someone in Winnipeg is so passionate about this project.

As I've mentioned before, I'm very interested in stadium projects, as in the past, I did academic research on the topic. Through work, I've had a chance to meet and collaborate on people involved in this project, and similar projects in the US. Moreover, I'm a CFL fan with an interest in projects going on in our league. Lastly, I am passionate about urban redevelopment - which this project claims to be about. I'm surprised that others who claim to be all for urban design and development aren't raising similar concerns...

[CCF]

Originally Posted by Bdog

As I've mentioned before, I'm very interested in stadium projects, as in the past, I did academic research on the topic. Through work, I've had a chance to meet and collaborate on people involved in this project, and similar projects in the US. Moreover, I'm a CFL fan with an interest in projects going on in our league. Lastly, I am passionate about urban redevelopment - which this project claims to be about. I'm surprised that others who claim to be all for urban design and development aren't raising similar concerns...

People have derailed this thread.

I personally am not participating in this thread because no matter what is said - the otherside doesn't listen.

I'll leave it at that.

[Joshy]

Originally Posted by CCF

People have derailed this thread.

I personally am not participating in this thread because no matter what is said - the otherside doesn't listen.

I'll leave it at that.

This thread hasn't been derailed in any form. Bdog is providing his opinion based on his own professional research, and he has a right to question this project, like people have a right to praise it. Nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of holes in this proposal, and bringing them to peoples attention instead of just writting fluffy feel-good posts is completely justifyable.