Halifax Stadium Discussion

[q12]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

So the paper today say 10,000 permanent, 10,000 temp.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1268042.html

Nothing has been decided yet. The paper should have used the words "could have".

[q12]

Strong pro-stadium showing at public session
Desiree Finhert
Oct 13, 2011 05:03:12 AM
NEWS95.7.com

Discussions about the scope and diversity of Halifax's proposed multi-use stadium dominated the first of four public consultation sessions at the Halifax Forum, and residents in favour seemed to outnumber those wary of the cost.

Out of the 150 residents who attended many suggested building a multi-million dollar sports stadium would be a smart investment.

"Financially, yes, you're going to have a cost to begin with, but it's all going to come back in the end," Joannie told News 95.7 during the meeting. "In the 70s, when Edmonton built its Commonwealth stadium they didn't have the money to do it. They did it anyway. It's completely paid for now. They've got CFL. They hold concerts."

Residents suggested the stadium could be home to a Canadian Football League team, but also suggested it would be a good venue for track and field events, concerts, trade shows, and even harness racing.

"I think it's got to be big enough that the city can grow into it," said Ron. "What I hear at the meeting, they're talking about a stadium that's really too small."

More here
http://www.news957.com/news/local/article/287761--strong-pro-stadium-showing-at-public-session

[q12]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I've been living in Toronto the last 10 years and football people here seem to feel the same way. We want a 10th team after Ottawa, and we want it in Halifax. Halifax is not too small. Lets not forget that Edmonton built Commonwealth Stadium in 1978 when they had about 480,000 people.

I find it astonishing that Haligonians are debating whether to build a 10,000 seater expandable to 20,000. There are high schools in the States that have stadiums bigger than that. Halifax needs to stop viewing itself as some puny little outpost on the Atlantic. There are 400,000 people in metro and another 1.4 million people in the region.

28,000 should be the capacity sought. Build it right the first time; you don't want another Moncton Stadium. Moncton did a great job for such a little city, but all their stadium shows is that they're not quite there yet.

Great post!

These are some good points to make at the location and design public session tonight. I think the point needs to really driven home tonight that 25,000 permanent seats is the way to go and hopefully they get the message and start steering in that direction.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by spaustin

We do have a shortage of sports infrastructure in a number of areas, but the question is do we need a 10,000+ stadium to address that? I don't think many amateur events require that level of infrastructure and we could build a lot more for the same cost. In fact, investing the money from a stadium in smaller atheletic facilities would actually do a lot more for our health problems then building one big stadium (no one gets fit while eating hotdogs and drinking beer in the stands watching semi-professionals play). I'm interested to know how many uses are anticipated that will actually require significant spectator seating. I think there were some rough estimates in the the Phase 1 and if memory serves it wasn't all that many events/days.

The more I hear about the case for a stadium, the more I find myself troubled. Building this to get FIFA is fine, but then what? If it's outside the Downtown the univeristies have said they won't use it so then what's left? A handful of concerts, a few regional championships and the odd larger event that we can attract. It would be great to have a CFL team, but the reality is we're still too small a market to support one. With Halifax's relatively large corporate base, we're well setup to grab one in the future (much better than Moncton in fact), but with just under 400,000 people I just don't see the current market being large enough to sustain professional football.

For this to be realistic, I think HRM needs partners onside, specifically the universities since they are really the only dependable tenant, the business community and support from upper level governments. Hopefully, we can identify some sustained uses for beyond FIFA. If we can't meet those criteria, that $60-$100 million or whatever it ends up costing might be better spent elsewhere. The convention centre feels like a much safer bet to me at this point, but I'll wait to see the final results.

This stadium is an essential piece of infrastructure for a community the size of Halifax. Halifax is a great event city and has hosted many big events such as G7, Buskers, Tall Ships, Canada Games, Brier, World Juniors, World Junior Volleyball, International Tattoo, Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney. It has been demonstrated what happens when you don't invest in your community. CFL franchise lost 1984, CFL exhibition games gone to Moncton, Uteck Bowl gone to Moncton and potentially a future CFL franchise squandered by Halifax because we can't build a stadium. The naysayers say there are more important issues like jobs and economy etc. How do we extol confidence in the outside community to invest in our region when we can't even build a stadium or capitalize on funding such as the lost $400 million that went out the window with the failed Commonwealth Games bid? You will not grow your community with inward thinking and to all of those who oppose the stadium, if it is not built you have not won.

This stadium would be a regional stadium. Not only do we not have an adequate stadium for a community the size of Halifax we don't even have one within driving distance. The closest stadium is 1230km away in Montreal.

All of the people who continually say they wouldn't drive over to Dartmouth to go to a stadium exemplify what the problem is. LAZY can't do attitude!

Simple can be harder than complex. You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. - Steve Jobs

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Back from the session....not sure how I feel about it all.
I dont really like the musical chair idea, just seemed childish to me....but did appreciate the opportunity to input ideas even though it was via the dummy post-it note on a board thingy again.
There were a few not gonna go so we dont need it people there, and lots of who is gonna pay people.....
The committee did not take questions nor did the architects....would have been good to get some info on what they uncovered so far....sites, costs, etc

After speaking to a few others and a discussion on the radio this morning, this is the reason I have choose not to attend in person this evening. I will still be logged into the chat. It's just not the type of public input I was expecting. I was expecting more options to voice and ask questions to any developers or architects.
With tonight focusing on location I'm hoping that in house and web attendance will be much higher. Just in case here is the link to the chat page.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/halifa...consultation-1

Will need to create an account (2mins). Click on sign-up (red circle) Once you are logged in, return to the main page with feed and click on the chat window (blue circle) We should get as many of us in there as possible.

[Keith P.]

Heard a little bit on CBC Mainstreet this aft - sort of the radio equivalent to the Coast these days - where everyone's expert and Stephanie Domet's #2 HRM expert-on-all things John Wesley Chisholm (2nd only to Mr. Waye Mason on her gadfly list) was decrying the entire process. He didn't like the cafe-style session and felt that the outcome was predetermined. Of course he opposes a stadium and thinks instead that public money should be spent on his artsy friends (including himself) and to subsidize his rent on his downtown space.

No wonder stuff is so hard to get done in this town with media coverage like this.

[Jstaleness]

Here is the link for tonight

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hrm-stadium-pub-consultation-2

[fenwick16]

I will have to sign out of the utream soon - this is a session that I wanted to watch but I have an appointment that I have to go to. Could someone report on the proceedings later?

Also, it seems as thought they have decided that the stadium will just be the bare minimum required for the FIFA Women's Cup. Could someone ask why that isn't a topic for consideration? Shouldn't the stadium also be designed for a CFL team? This is intended to be a public consultation!

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Empire

The naysayers say there are more important issues like jobs and economy etc.

I might add that having entertainment options is intimately tied to jobs and the economy. Companies/entrepreneurs look at these things when deciding where to locate as they're a powerful draw when recruiting top talent. A CFL team and stadium aren't enough by themselves, but they're important pieces in the puzzle. Many young talented people leave because they're fed up waiting. Life's too short; graduates will leave for other cities that offer sports, theatre, amusement parks, great shopping, etc.

Those that only see a sports stadium are blind.

[fenwick16]

I haven't been at the consultations since I am not in the Halifax-area, but from watching the consultations live feed, I kept thinking that the stadium purpose has already been decided; the stadium will be a 10,000 permanent seat community soccer stadium. Is this what Haligonians really want? This will limit its usefulness.

A stadium with 10,000 permanent seats along the sidelines and 10,000 seats in the end-zones will not work for the CFL. Because of the long CFL field dimensions, the endzone seats really are the cheap seats for Canadian football with a poor view of the field. No owner will be able to survive with such a stadium configuration. Moncton has already learned this lesson but it seems as though that message is being lost. In my opinion, it will be a big mistake that will limit the usefulness of the stadium.

Personally, I don't have a good feeling regarding the direction that the stadium design is going in. Have the stadium architects been to a CFL game? If not, then they should take the time and go to a couple games (or at least one).

[Empire]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I might add that having entertainment options is intimately tied to jobs and the economy. Companies/entrepreneurs look at these things when deciding where to locate as they're a powerful draw when recruiting top talent. A CFL team and stadium aren't enough by themselves, but they're important pieces in the puzzle. Many young talented people leave because they're fed up waiting. Life's too short; graduates will leave for other cities that offer sports, theatre, amusement parks, great shopping, etc.

Those that only see a sports stadium are blind.

Very well said. There is a list of amenities that one would expect to see in a city the size of Halifax. To be lacking amenities that should be in place raises a red flag for investors, external companies wanting to locate here and be able to sell the location to employees etc. This stadium represents so much more than a cheap set of bleachers. It can help to correct 5 major wrongs.
1. The loss of a CFL franchise in 1984.
2. The loss of the Commonwealth Games in 1994 to Victoria.
3. The loss of the Commonwealth Games bid to Hamilton for the 2010 games hosted by New Delhi
4. The disastrous bailout of the 2014 Commonwealth Games. Halifax should have remained in the bid process and put forward a very modest proposal. Just because the bid committee had a PRELIMINARY cost of 1.8 billion on the bid didn't mean we had to do it. The bid should have gone in at a modest 800,000 million and then perhaps the feds would have jumped in etc. Even if they didn't we would have seen the process through and highlighted the lack of infrastructure.

All of the above can be directly linked to the lack of a STADIUM!

[ATL Stadium]

I guess its one of those things!!!!

I thinks its very important and often missed point that this Stadium (should it go up) is to be for the future not the present. Someone used the word "grow into it" like when you were a kid and your Mom bought you new clothes for school a size bigger.....makes sense now doesn't it.

10 + 10 makes sense for the present opportunity and maybe that is a funding request "ask" situation but......the reality seems to be so far off that mark!

The general public...whoever that is....is not informed enough to add very much to these sessions....REALLY. There needs to be some teaching done by the committee that has been studying the STADIUM. At the very least the committee to share what it has already learned itself. HRM has limitations....and some advantages too....those need to be publicly discussed. The public needs to be brought up to date and then can wade into the sessions with support or critical comments.

I heard one comment from a person that said hey they only sold 11,000 seats for the CFL exhibition game afew years ago....what makes HRM think it can fill a 20,000 seat stadium.....duh! they had a sell out! if they had more seating they would have sold them...! Then the "if its in Dartmouth I'm never gonna go" people COME ON!!!! This is not a Hal-Dart thingy at all.....this should be supported as an
ATLANTIC STADIUM !!!!

Can you tell I'm starting to RANT now?

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

I guess its one of those things!!!!

I thinks its very important and often missed point that this Stadium (should it go up) is to be for the future not the present. Someone used the word "grow into it" like when you were a kid and your Mom bought you new clothes for school a size bigger.....makes sense now doesn't it.

10 + 10 makes sense for the present opportunity and maybe that is a funding request "ask" situation but......the reality seems to be so far off that mark!

The general public...whoever that is....is not informed enough to add very much to these sessions....REALLY. There needs to be some teaching done by the committee that has been studying the STADIUM. At the very least the committee to share what it has already learned itself. HRM has limitations....and some advantages too....those need to be publicly discussed. The public needs to be brought up to date and then can wade into the sessions with support or critical comments.

I heard one comment from a person that said hey they only sold 11,000 seats for the CFL exhibition game afew years ago....what makes HRM think it can fill a 20,000 seat stadium.....duh! they had a sell out! if they had more seating they would have sold them...! Then the "if its in Dartmouth I'm never gonna go" people COME ON!!!! This is not a Hal-Dart thingy at all.....this should be supported as an
ATLANTIC STADIUM !!!!

Can you tell I'm starting to RANT now?

I thought the same of the comment regarding the 11,000 seats. People must have forgotten how quickly those 11,000 seats sold out!!! They were gone in no time. Had there been 9,000 more available I believe they would have sold out too. Maybe not as fast because I believe part of the reason sold so quickly was because everyone knew there was only 11,000 available. That doesn't matter though, if they sell before game time it's a success.
As far as the "I'm not going if it's in Dartmouth" thing. Well many are saying that now. I guess they are still bitter about the HRM thing. What's funny as people said that about Best Buy too before it opened in Dartmouth Crossing and not Bayers Lake. We'll see those people in the stands I'm sure.

[Waye Mason]

The fact remains that right now we are proposing building a stadium with no tenants, just occasional events.

If CFL really wants to come here they should get engaged now, so there is a justification to build a larger building. And I mean official from the top assurances.

The only other option is to do what Fenwick has been saying, and build one set of stands on one side so if the CFL comes we can build the other.

[-Harlington-]

I said this in the stadium location thread but given the recent comments on here ill repost my comment :



The previous bid (commonwealth games) was supposed to be shannon park, it was going to be a nice 50,000 seater with the temporary seats

When Halifax was supposed to have a CFL team (1984 i believe) it was going to go in Dartmouth somewhere but that one was proposed to be 30,000

so what the hell is with all this 10,000 same a moncton shit,
they did it so we have to ??
come on now Halifax whats 10,000 gonna be good for in 25 years ??

Just my opinion, lol

and by the way, of the suggested locations id take Shannon Park
even though i retain the thought that there most likely is another good option that can be found

[ATL Stadium]

Certainly there are games at play here in the funding issues......

DD said "no" then he said "not right now".....

Petey said sure we will be there.......when HRM is there..provided its not for "PRO" sport.

HRM has said lets first build a business case.....

CFL says they'd love to expand to become a coast to coast league.....but who would be the owner to build anew team or to bring an existing one? There is no Stadium big enough to sell enough tickets......

UNLESS TAX DOLLARS DO IT WHO IS GOING TO BUILD IT ?

Private developer???? Interesting scenario....

SAy.... just saying.....

That HRM gives...gifts...a developer a large portion of land say like the top of Burnside.....on the proviso that they build an ATLANTIC STADIUM! and they get free range on the rest of the parcel of land....to build.... office, parking, restaurants, hotels, .....they also get to manage the site....lease the Stadium, sell advertizing....lease concessions....all that stuff.....
AND..... no other competing "new" development get approval for ten years within a 5 km distance of the STADIUM~!!!! Not a monopoly but a protection of their investment

Do you think any developer has already been tossing that around?????

ATLANTIC STADIUM ~ Atlantic Storm ~ Ride the Wave!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Certainly there are games at play here in the funding issues......

DD said "no" then he said "not right now".....

Petey said sure we will be there.......when HRM is there..provided its not for "PRO" sport.

HRM has said lets first build a business case.....

CFL says they'd love to expand to become a coast to coast league.....but who would be the owner to build anew team or to bring an existing one? There is no Stadium big enough to sell enough tickets......

UNLESS TAX DOLLARS DO IT WHO IS GOING TO BUILD IT ?

Private developer???? Interesting scenario....

SAy.... just saying.....

That HRM gives...gifts...a developer a large portion of land say like the top of Burnside.....on the proviso that they build an ATLANTIC STADIUM! and they get free range on the rest of the parcel of land....to build.... office, parking, restaurants, hotels, .....they also get to manage the site....lease the Stadium, sell advertizing....lease concessions....all that stuff.....
AND..... no other competing "new" development get approval for ten years within a 5 km distance of the STADIUM~!!!! Not a monopoly but a protection of their investment

Do you think any developer has already been tossing that around?????

ATLANTIC STADIUM ~ Atlantic Storm ~ Ride the Wave!

Gifts, eh...

And 5 km too.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

This 10 + 10 idea is horrible. Building what Moncton has simply is not good enough. Ya sure I've made the trip to Moncton for both TD Atlantic games (11 of us each year) and have had a great time each visit. But what Moncton has will never be any good for more than it is right now unless they spend tens of millions to upgrade it. 1 or maybe 2 CFL games a year.

I can tell you now from having experienced sitting in the end zone the first year and being 4 rows behind the Stamps bench this year that I will never buy end zone seats again for TD Atlantic (especially at $60 a piece where in most other CFL stadiums end zone seats go in the $20-25 range) and if in coming years I can't land a ticket in one of the 2 permanent sideline sections then I won't go. Having half of the seats in the endzone simply won't cut it and in my opinion is why this years TD Atlantic game didn't sell out and neither will future games. The permanent sideline seats sold out in 2 days this year again because these are the types of seats with the types of views and comfort that people want and won't mind paying a little extra for. The end zone seats suck, your packed in like sardines.

One other HUGE problem with the Moncton field is it's lack of proper washroom facilities. I can tell you now that the CFL will never ever in a million years consider putting a team in Moncton where tons and tons of porta potties are the only option. Sorry for my rant and no I'm not trying to take shots at Moncton here. I'm simply very frustrated at the possibility that HRM looks to be going down the WRONG ROAD.

I am very much in favor of a stadium for HRM but only one thats built properly with the needs of the future in mind. This 10 + 10 notion is moronic and lacks any vision. If indeed this is the direction they choose to proceed in then I have to say I am 100% against any type of stadium at all as it is a waste of $.

Again I am sticking with what I beleive is needed here, a 25,000 permanent seat stadium with room for expansion for larger events like Grey Cups, concerts, international soccer matches, trade shows, winter skating, etc. My preference still remains Dartmouth Crossing as there is lots of land, easy access, sports bars, shopping, etc. and seems to be the next big development area. Shannon Park is my distant 2'nd schoice. While it sure would look nice on TV thats about it.

Sorry for the long rant but it's been awhile since I have posted. I still drop in alot to see whats being said though.

Cheers

[someone123]

It is almost comical that a few years ago the CWGs were deemed acceptable at around a $700M price tag (province and feds were interested in participating), but council balked when there was some sort of talk that it would go over a billion. Now supposedly the city can't afford a 20,000 seat stadium which as far as I can tell would have a far better return on investment than an elaborate one-time event requiring velodromes or North Korea-style choreographed opening ceremonies or whatever it was.

It just doesn't make any sense, and clearly there's little continuity or reason behind the way the city plans these things. They just jump from one political opportunity to the next.

Anyway, as I've said before, I don't think 10,000 seats is bad. That is still better than no stadium. What's key is making sure that, if something gets built now, it sets groundwork for a great venue in the future. Those who want a CFL stadium should be pushing for 20,000+ seats, but if they can't get it there should also be a clear message that the 10,000 seater must be designed as a mid-sized stadium from the beginning, with a clear plan for expansion.

I also still think it would be best to have the universities regularly use the new venue. A location on the peninsula would be best, followed by something like Shannon Park if there are considerable transportation upgrades (which probably make it more expensive than the Peninsula). A suburban stadium won't provide a great experience and is less likely to be used consistently. No matter how much hand waving goes on, Dartmouth Crossing will not be a central location and the suburban areas of Halifax will still be terrible.

[MonctonRad]

@MaritimeCFLFan

What you said was not a rant and I agree with most everything that you have said.

You have to keep in mind that the Moncton Stadium was not built with the CFL in mind. It was built for the specific purpose of hosting the World Junior Track & Field Championships, and on a tight budget at that. What extra monies were spent, were spent on the track and the infield. The track is a top rated Mondo track similar to what they put in the Birdsnest in Beijing. It recieved rave reviews from the athletes. Unfortunately, the stadium itself has got deficiencies, most notably in terms of the the concourses (there are none), concessions (there are none) and the permanent washrooms (again there are none, except in the west grandstand). We do have a nifty pressbox however (built for the world media) and nice team dressing rooms.

Halifax has a leg up and can correct the deficiencies in the Moncton design if it so wants. Again, the Moncton Stadium is a fine facility (for it's intended purpose), but I presume that anything Halifax builds (even a 10 & 10 as proposed) will have certain amenities that are lacking in Moncton, such as sufficient permanent washrooms, concessions and corporate boxes. Expandability is also a must. I'm sure this will be addressed. It would be ludicrous not to.

The Moncton Stadium is fixable, but it would be expensive and I'm sure that it will not be done unless things with the CFL get really serious. In the meantime, we'll make do with what we have. For one or two games a year, it's not so bad.