New Arena for Downtown Edmonton

[oiler-dude]

Eric Francis mentioned on Hockey Night in Canada tonight that Katz & Mandel meeting with Bettman is indicative of the arena deal being "in bad shape" which in turn could be the "franchise in bad shape."

This is all really starting to worry me. Get. Something. Done.

If this deal falls apart and we lose the Oilers, I'm done with the city. And this is home to me.

[hqcan]

Unfortanetly you could be dead right. As much as Edmontonians (on this forum and otherwise) keep on saying "the Oilers can't leave this city because we are such a great hockey market", the reality is that NO ownership group, katz or otherwise, will maintain Hockey in Edmonton without a new Arena. It's as simple as that.

So as mentioned previously, there really only are 3 options.

1. Renovate Rexall at public expense and hope that Katz sell's to owners (or, in the case that he leaves with the team, then a new ownership group that brings a team back) willing to play at Rexall with the current (or similar) Northlands deal in place (i.e. Oilers are still one of the only franchises that don't receive non-hockey related revenue).

2. Let the deal fall apart and allow the lack of an economic enviroment for this hockey team take it's toll. If continued refusal to build a new arena/renovate rexall at public expense occurs, then NHL will simply leave town.

3. Work with Katz and come to resolution. Build a downtown arena.

[Gary Wayne]

I believe city council made a huge mistake telling the Edmonton Taxpayer they would not see an increase in taxes to build an arena. . It now may be time for the mayor and council to say we were wrong . Edmonton , has to change or we will loose the Oilers just as Winnipeg lost the Jets. The sad truth is that many in Edmonton could care less about loosing the oilers, but maybe if we loose the oilers and the economy in Edmonton goes south the tax payer will then say what did we do to Edmonton, and how can we fix the mess we have made.

[hilman]

Peoples taxes aren't going up, the use of the CRL is new tax money based on new development.

8. Can you give me an example of how a CRL works? Mr. A and Mr. B own lots in the CRL zone. Both currently are parking lots and they are located directly next to each other. Today both businessmen pay $500 in taxes.

The City approves a CRL in the area where the two lots are located. Mr. A builds a 20-storey condominium tower on his lot and Mr. B leaves his lot as is. Mr. B continues to pay $500 in taxes but Mr. A, who is collecting new revenue from his condominium tower, sees his taxes increase to $10,000 as a result of his new development. The increased amount – in this case $9,500 – would be used to pay for the CRL.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/planning_development/community-revitalization-levy-faq.aspx

[christopherj]

Originally Posted by oiler-dude

Eric Francis mentioned on Hockey Night in Canada tonight that Katz & Mandel meeting with Bettman is indicative of the arena deal being "in bad shape" which in turn could be the "franchise in bad shape."

This is all really starting to worry me. Get. Something. Done.

If this deal falls apart and we lose the Oilers, I'm done with the city. And this is home to me.

Eric Francis is know as being one of the most anti-Edmonton sports writers in Canada. The guy slags on Edmonton and the Oilers any chance he gets.

Here's how I see it - Bettman has been talking to Katz group about the deal and knows their story. Tuesday's meeting between Bettman/the city is for Bettman to understand the cities point of view. Wednesday is for the three parties to try and come to some sort of agreement.

I'll make a prediction - Katz's group will drop the non-competition agreement requirement by the end of this week.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by hilman

Peoples taxes aren't going up, the use of the CRL is new tax money based on new development.



http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/planning_development/community-revitalization-levy-faq.aspx

Your example assumes that the only reason the 20 storey tower is built is due to reason the CRL was initially created (be it arena, downtown entertainment district, or infrastructure upgrades like in Calgary's east village). If the tower was going to go ahead regardless of the CRL project, that extra $9,500 in tax revenue could have gone into other city services, rather than pay off a debt. So, the rest of the city misses out on it, and still has expenses that needs to be covered by their taxes, which could have been offset by the extra $9,500.

It all hinges on IF the lot would have remained undeveloped had the CRL project not gone through. Depending on where they make the borders of the CRL and what the money was spent on, that can be a pretty big IF.

[Tower Crane]

There are two different headlines happening at the same time.

1. The Katz group are acting like a bunch of bullies. Unlike True North in Winnipeg they have endeared themselves to know one.

2. If the City is going to play ball then PLAY BALL, tell Katz what the city is prepared to do and just do it, they are inept at taking a position or making anything happen without months and years of delay due to nothing more than "that's just the way the city and our elected officials work".

Edmonton's name is starting to get dragged through the mud......now PLAY NICE AND PLAY BALL.

[hilman]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Your example assumes that the only reason the 20 storey tower is built is due to reason the CRL was initially created (be it arena, downtown entertainment district, or infrastructure upgrades like in Calgary's east village). If the tower was going to go ahead regardless of the CRL project, that extra $9,500 in tax revenue could have gone into other city services, rather than pay off a debt. So, the rest of the city misses out on it, and still has expenses that needs to be covered by their taxes, which could have been offset by the extra $9,500.

It all hinges on IF the lot would have remained undeveloped had the CRL project not gone through. Depending on where they make the borders of the CRL and what the money was spent on, that can be a pretty big IF.

This is true but many of the empty lots near the proposed arena have been vacant for years, if a large development was built in the next few years around the arena, it would most likely be due to this arena district (or at least accelerated it). The original comment stated that peoples taxes would be raised but this is false as no ones taxes that currently live in the CRL zone would be raised (or the 90-95% of people outside the zone for that matter). Let's say the debt is paid off in 20 years, where does all this revenue go? Do you think a new district will spur new developments or at least accelerate them?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by hilman

This is true but many of the empty lots near the proposed arena have been vacant for years, if a large development was built in the next few years around the arena, it would most likely be due to this arena district (or at least accelerated it). The original comment stated that peoples taxes would be raised but this is false as no ones taxes that currently live in the CRL zone would be raised (or the 90-95% of people outside the zone for that matter). Let's say the debt is paid off in 20 years, where does all this revenue go? Do you think a new district will spur new developments or at least accelerate them?

A new district could very well spur new development, but what are the extents of the CRL boundary? I am not as familiar with it in Edmonton, but a good example is Calgary's East Village. The CRL boundary was drawn up to include the parcel of land that The Bow is on. That project was announced and proceeding prior to the CRL being approved, and has nothing to do with the new infrastructure going into the East Village (that the CRL is to pay for). I can't remember the exact numbers, but it is estimated that the Bow's property taxes are going to be around $20 million a year when completed. That is $20 million that the City's general revenue will miss out on for many years.

Nobody's taxes have gone up, but this year City Hall is looking at all budgets quite carefully, and talking of needing to cut back on some departments, which may result in a lower level of service. The cut-backs would not have to be as severe if we had that extra $20 million coming in from The Bow. So your taxes might not go up, but you aren't getting the same level of service that you would have otherwise been getting. Or, if you want to maintain that level of service (or perhaps increase it), you need to raise taxes, by more than you normally would have without the CRL.

So in a way, the rest of the city is directly subsidizing the East Village redevelopment. I think it would have been a lot more "accurate" to only set the CRL boundary for the community of East Village. In Edmonton, I think I read that they are expanding the CRL boundary all the way to 109 Street (correct me if I am wrong). Maybe a new arena will spur development that far away, but can you see how it starts to become a grey area and therefore causes the reaction that it IS costing tax payers money?

[hilman]

I think we can both agree that healthy and vibrant downtowns are what every city wants. Currently our downtown generates 10% of our taxes yet only gets 2% of that returned on spending for downtown projects. This $450 M arena and the $400 M district equates to a massive amount of money nearing $1 billion. The $400 M ancillary projects are privately funded and will bring in millions of dollars a year in taxes. The $450 M arena portion will be paid by Katz ($100 M), user fee ($125 M), tbd ($100 M) leaving the City on the hook for a maximum of $125 M. Is this a good value considering the amount of new taxes coming in, you bet. Even if you get less in return, a $125 M investment that is used by tens of thousands of people 200+ times a year is exactly what our downtown needs.

The City would be foolish to not invest this small amount of money into such a huge and important project. Seems the City can spend $110 M on the Commonwealth rec centre or $100+ M on the Terwilliger rec centre with no one batting an eye lash. Fact is, this CRL will be used for numerous downtown projects with the arena only being around 60% of the levy. If the arena last 40 years, you are looking at a cost of just over $3 million a year, seems like a no brainer to me.

[thurmas]

Get it done Edmonton I want to see the Jets battle you guys for a very long time.

[CMD UW]

I agree. While at the game last night I overheard a number of people saying "We need a new barn." or "Get the arena done.". Of course these are fans, but the reality is that it's time to get it done.

[Jasper and one o nin]

meanwhile, I was having thankgiving turkey with relatives, and the general belief was, the City is handing over 400 million to katz. it was a fun conversation and ended with a table with a much different attitude. The general population has no idea. The longer this goes on, more people will form the wrong opinion based on misinformation and rhetoric. The City needs to commit. Council are the individuals who have been chosen to make the decision based on the greater good. The question they need to ask is will the City be a better place with or without the downtown arena? Make the commitment to go to the next level. The longer they wait, the worse off they will be in the eyes of the misinformed population

[Coldrsx]

Did anyone watch last Thurs or this past Sat highlights of downtown Winnipeg...

[Black Star]

I saw Sat nights pre-game....game... and post-game highlights. Winnipeg looked amazing.


Enough said.........

[Coldrsx]

Interesting page about the arena...

http://www.heartofthecapital.com/

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Daryl Katz speaks

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/10/11/blackout-beaters

NEW YORK - Only minutes before Gary Bettman issued the media blackout to Daryl Katz and Mayor Stephen Mandel, the Oilers’ owner decided he had something to say.

“We are here to get it done,” Katz told the Sun before Wednesday’s crucial meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, who is playing the role of facilitator to get the Edmonton downtown arena project back on the rails in time to get the deal done by Katz’s Oct. 31 deadline.

“We commend everyone involved in their willingness to meet, particularly the mayor and Gary Bettman,” said Katz.

“We have some significant issues to resolve. We’re confident where there’s a will, there’s a way.

“We’re hopeful we’ll be able to come away with an agreement which will enable us all to move forward. We have to get this deal right for the city of Edmonton and ourselves.

“We feel this is about seizing the opportunity to transform our city and lock the Oilers into longtime sustainability in Edmonton.”

[Coldrsx]

That is somewhat positive. Good to hear.

[rapid_business]

Interview from the folks who set up http://www.heartofthecapital.com

Check it out here

[Coldrsx]

Another site is up

http://www.buildthearena.com/