Rural Commuter Rail

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I'd love to see this happen.

Same here, dude.

[waterloowarrior]

Ottawa-area commuter rail gathers steam
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/09/13/ottawa-moose-rail-line.html

http://www.letsgomoose.com

[eternallyme]

One question I am wondering - how difficult would it be to extend OC Transpo bus services into outlying municipalities, replacing the other bus companies through buyouts or agreements? It would look a lot better on system maps and simplify operations for the entire metropolitan area. That is one reason why I think OC Transpo should be not just a City of Ottawa operation, but a metropolitan authority.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

One question I am wondering - how difficult would it be to extend OC Transpo bus services into outlying municipalities, replacing the other bus companies through buyouts or agreements? It would look a lot better on system maps and simplify operations for the entire metropolitan area. That is one reason why I think OC Transpo should be not just a City of Ottawa operation, but a metropolitan authority.

Would you really want to sit on an OC Transpo bus from Arnprior to Downtown Ottawa or on a coach style bus? Plus, OC Transpo buses have a lot less seating room then the buses that are currently in place.

[S-Man]

This would be a godsend to many commuters; overall it's just a great idea. I wonder, though, if it can be done.

[MountainView]

The problem is that from the map it looks like (I could be wrong) one of the proposed lines runs through Greenboro-Carleton-Bayview to Gatineau, and I doubt OC Transpo and their O-train would want to share any passing/track rights with a "competitor". Plus it would delay the O-trains schedule and does anyone know if the station platforms are wide enough for the MOOSE train? Or will the platform extenders have to be lifted up every time?

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by MountainView

Would you really want to sit on an OC Transpo bus from Arnprior to Downtown Ottawa or on a coach style bus? Plus, OC Transpo buses have a lot less seating room then the buses that are currently in place.

True, but they could run more often if they would otherwise have standees, as it would be tough to stand for that distance.

[adam-machiavelli]

I would definitely support the creation of a regional transit network. It would be more accountable than the current system which has little logical relationship to proper transit planning. I know for a fact that routes are routinely given to family and friends of local politicians or as part of payment for support for local campaigns.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by MountainView

The problem is that from the map it looks like (I could be wrong) one of the proposed lines runs through Greenboro-Carleton-Bayview to Gatineau, and I doubt OC Transpo and their O-train would want to share any passing/track rights with a "competitor". Plus it would delay the O-trains schedule and does anyone know if the station platforms are wide enough for the MOOSE train? Or will the platform extenders have to be lifted up every time?

I don't see any way in which the regional rail would be a competitor to the O-Train, even if it stopped at these locations (I'm assuming the fare would be prohibitive for someone just trying to jump one or two stations, which is the entire purpose of the O-Train).

I think as a trial run the commuter rail could work on this length of track as-in, but for anything more than perhaps one train per day per commute these tracks will have to be doubled - a cost which could be shared between OC Transpo and MOOSE and which would benefit both.

The real issue is that this would require a rethink of the entire current LRT plan, as the O-Train would become permanent (nonconvertable to electric rail). This may not be the wrong approach (but then again it may) but it would require serious consideration by the City of Ottawa prior to permitting MOOSE.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

I don't see any way in which the regional rail would be a competitor to the O-Train, even if it stopped at these locations (I'm assuming the fare would be prohibitive for someone just trying to jump one or two stations, which is the entire purpose of the O-Train).

I meant it as a competitor in general, not just to the O-train. People driving from outlying areas to park and ride, then using OC Transpo to downtown or elsewhere, as opposed to taking the rural coach bus service from the outlying areas to downtown. I guess I wasn't quite clear but I meant that I don't think OC Transpo wants to share the current track between Greenboro and Bayview with another company, even if their rider-ships for that portion are completely different, as it would affect their schedules.

[lrt's friend]

as the O-Train would become permanent (nonconvertable to electric rail). This may not be the wrong approach

This is definitely the wrong approach. Any approach requiring two transfers to reach downtown is a big mistake. It will slow down service and make transit unnecessarily less attractive as an alternative. Again, why spend hundreds of millions to build a tunnel and then deliberately not run trains into it? You are going to have all kinds of capacity issues between Bayview and downtown requiring extra trains to be stored at Bayview or overcapacity further west.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is definitely the wrong approach. Any approach requiring two transfers to reach downtown is a big mistake. It will slow down service and make transit unnecessarily less attractive as an alternative. Again, why spend hundreds of millions to build a tunnel and then deliberately not run trains into it? You are going to have all kinds of capacity issues between Bayview and downtown requiring extra trains to be stored at Bayview or overcapacity further west.

Or the O-Train remains used for exactly what it is used for today: urban, rather than commuter transit, providing easy access from the transitway to (eventually Gladstone), Carling, most importantly Carleton, Confederation Heights, one day Walkley, with a first stop in Greenboro. Meanwhile, it is the SE Transitway that is converted to LRT with direct access to the downtown tunnel and extended southwards to Riverside South (therefore only one transfer from downtown for those using it from outside its walking catchment). This has the added advantage of allowing the O-Train to be extended accross to Gatineau as a direct line rather than a spur.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Or the O-Train remains used for exactly what it is used for today: urban, rather than commuter transit, providing easy access from the transitway to (eventually Gladstone), Carling, most importantly Carleton, Confederation Heights, one day Walkley, with a first stop in Greenboro. Meanwhile, it is the SE Transitway that is converted to LRT with direct access to the downtown tunnel and extended southwards to Riverside South (therefore only one transfer from downtown for those using it from outside its walking catchment). This has the added advantage of allowing the O-Train to be extended accross to Gatineau as a direct line rather than a spur.

Yes, but I think the need to extend to Gatineau is immediate and not long-term, and the most efficient opportunity is to extend the O-Train as it is.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Yes, but I think the need to extend to Gatineau is immediate and not long-term, and the most efficient opportunity is to extend the O-Train as it is.

So we're in agreement on this point then.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Yes, but I think the need to extend to Gatineau is immediate and not long-term, and the most efficient opportunity is to extend the O-Train as it is.

And with that decision, you have made a commitment for the entire line permanently. And why is this so important? There will be very little demand outside of peak periods. Also, isn't there significant implications as result of crossing a provincial boundary?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And with that decision, you have made a commitment for the entire line permanently.

No, you haven't.

And why is this so important? There will be very little demand outside of peak periods.

Like.... the rest of the transit system, relatively speaking?

Also, isn't there significant implications as result of crossing a provincial boundary?

No worse than what already exists.

If we can't get the O-Train extended to Gatineau before this decade is out, there is no hope — none — for any kind of interprovincial transit strategy, ever.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No, you haven't.



Like.... the rest of the transit system, relatively speaking?



No worse than what already exists.

If we can't get the O-Train extended to Gatineau before this decade is out, there is no hope — none — for any kind of interprovincial transit strategy, ever.

So, if you extend the diesel O-Train to downtown Hull, how do we ever electrify the line and run it into the downtown tunnel? You are left with an orphan rail line crossing the bridge. As I said, this kind extension interferes with the original plans and the idea of running two rail lines to the south is not going to happen. It is way too wasteful. Furthermore, any interprovincial transit plan will not be satisfied by a spur line into downtown Hull. It needs to follow the Rapidbus route instead.

The transit demand to downtown Hull from Ottawa is not comparable to demand within various parts of Ottawa. Of course, there is great variation between peak and off-peak demand, but downtown Hull doesn't have a lot to offer other than a bunch of office buildings and the Museum of Civilization. The museum alone cannot possibly justify frequent rail service 7 days a week, 18 hours a day. Even then, the rail line will not run very close to the museum. You might as well walk across the bridge instead. It would be just as close to Ottawa transit.

Well, you are not going to get rail service to Gatineau until there is an integrated interprovincial plan accepted by both OC Transpo and STO and that plan must be designed around our main transit destination, downtown Ottawa. With the tunnel still at least 7 years away, why would we think that there will be any action on interprovincial rail service in the next 10 years?

[DarkArconio]

From articles I've read in the past, I have the impression that the Prince of Wales rail bridge is likely structurally unsound and would likely need to be rebuilt for any use not as a bike path.

Can anyone find evidence that the bridge is actually ready to be used in its current state and thus any O-Train expansion across it wouldn't be massively expensive (and thus warrant careful consideration of other alternatives)?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So, if you extend the diesel O-Train to downtown Hull, how do we ever electrify the line and run it into the downtown tunnel?

Maybe.... by electrifying it and running it into the downtown tunnel?

It's not that hard to add a rail radius from the NS line to the future EW with a tunnel line. And it's not that hard to shut down the O-Train for a while to electrify it - heck, some expurts have suggested you wouldn't really even need to shut it down if you call in someone from Yurp where they've done this before.

You are left with an orphan rail line crossing the bridge.

It's not orphan at all. Northbound it could be a variant route; southbound, inbound pax from Gatineau would either keep going south, or transfer at Bayview.

As I said, this kind extension interferes with the original plans and the idea of running two rail lines to the south is not going to happen.

I'm not aware of anyone suggesting such.

It is way too wasteful. Furthermore, any interprovincial transit plan will not be satisfied by a spur line into downtown Hull. It needs to follow the Rapidbus route instead.

It can do both.

Well, you are not going to get rail service to Gatineau until there is an integrated interprovincial plan accepted by both OC Transpo and STO and that plan must be designed around our main transit destination, downtown Ottawa. With the tunnel still at least 7 years away, why would we think that there will be any action on interprovincial rail service in the next 10 years?

One can only dream. But if a relatively cheap and easy interprovincial crossing can't be done, than expensiver and difficulter ones aren't, either.

Gatineau's intransigence, everyone's fixation on interprovincial car/truck crossings, the two provincial governments' not-so-benign neglect of the region, and the NCC's residual antipathy to transit, the delayed study notwithstanding, don't help.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So, if you extend the diesel O-Train to downtown Hull, how do we ever electrify the line and run it into the downtown tunnel?

It can be done with electro-diesel technology.