Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[ChrisK]

On the topic of Canada Line access points, does anyone know if a better transfer at Granville will ever be dug out? Seems like it would be pretty straightforward pedestrian tunnel under the intersection of Granville and Georgia.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

On the topic of Canada Line access points, does anyone know if a better transfer at Granville will ever be dug out? Seems like it would be pretty straightforward pedestrian tunnel under the intersection of Granville and Georgia.

And where would this new pedestrian tunnel under the intersection go to?

The station already connects to the Pacific Centre and Vancouver Centre malls, and indirectly through those malls to The Bay.

Is there somewhere else it needs to connect to?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by theho

One thing to note about the difficulty of doing cut and cover along 10th ave is the VGH hospital complex. There are inter-building tunnels and all sort of hospital utility running under the road. I imagine it would be quite the logistical headache to dig around it all. Tunnelling presumably avoids that difficulty.

TBM tunnelling allows you to go deeper as necessary to get past those pesky problems.

The TBM building the Canada Line tubes didn't have much of a problem staying below the Granville Street sub-surface infrastructure (power cables, water pipes, sewers, telus conduits &tc.) while also crossing the Expo/Millennium line under Dunsmuir.

Even with all the underground obstructions under 10th Ave around VGH, they should be easier to deal with than what has been buried under Broadway for the last the 100+ years. The city engineers like to think they know whats under the city streets, but we all know that there will be some surprises when they start digging down to build the subway stations.

Using a 10th Ave alignment reduces the chances of "showstopper" surprises, since it hasn't been a major route for underground infrastructure like Broadway has been (as still is)

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Old&New

So is it possible to realign the line from broadway to 10th Ave instead?

No construction has been started, so it is possible.

I've recently realised that one advantage of a 10th Ave alignment from Kingsgate Mall to UBC is the jog from Broadway/Alma to 10th/Alma is no longer needed, so there isn't a need to expropriate properties in the area - notably the Chevron station and the strip mall with 7/11 in it.

This should please someone at Translink because not having to expropriate the Chevron property also means not having to pay big bucks to sanitize the site after decades of gasoline spills. They're still PO'd about the extra expense to detox the ground before they could build the King Edward station on the Canada Line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

Expertise is required for designing large projects like this, but if the public isn't given a voice in the matter (real or otherwise), it's hard for them to 'buy in' to the project, no matter how good the merits of the project/idea is..

But come on - they heeded the "one entrance per station" point on the survey? Isn't that's the time for the experts to step up to the plate and say "wait a minute, that will inconvenience people and make the system more difficult to access".

I don't know exactly what or how the survey was taken, but the way questions are worded can have a huge impact on the responses. If there was a question on it that said, for example, "would you like access to Vancouver Central station from Georgia only or from both Georgia and Robson", do you really think people would chose only the one entrance?

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

No construction has been started, so it is possible.

I've recently realised that one advantage of a 10th Ave alignment from Kingsgate Mall to UBC is the jog from Broadway/Alma to 10th/Alma is no longer needed, so there isn't a need to expropriate properties in the area - notably the Chevron station and the strip mall with 7/11 in it.

This should please someone at Translink because not having to expropriate the Chevron property also means not having to pay big bucks to sanitize the site after decades of gasoline spills. They're still PO'd about the extra expense to detox the ground before they could build the King Edward station on the Canada Line.

Anyone have connections to the "authorities" on this? I think a 10th Ave. alignment might be something for them to consider, or reconsider...

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Anyone have connections to the "authorities" on this? I think a 10th Ave. alignment might be something for them to consider, or reconsider...

I believe 10th is already considered the best route in the existing documents.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

But come on - they heeded the "one entrance per station" point on the survey? Isn't that's the time for the experts to step up to the plate and say "wait a minute, that will inconvenience people and make the system more difficult to access".

I don't know exactly what or how the survey was taken, but the way questions are worded can have a huge impact on the responses. If there was a question on it that said, for example, "would you like access to Vancouver Central station from Georgia only or from both Georgia and Robson", do you really think people would chose only the one entrance?

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree with multiple entrance/exit points for select stations (i.e. VCC, Broadway-City Hall and Oakridge come to mind). In fact, they set a precedent with Waterfront where you can go either Hastings or Waterfront proper, so you would think they could do it for some of them. Only think I can think of is that there was no vacant spot on Robson, so they'd have to enter a deal with Cadallac Fairview (Pacific Centre owners) for right-of-way, which may be pricey.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree with multiple entrance/exit points for select stations (i.e. VCC, Broadway-City Hall and Oakridge come to mind). In fact, they set a precedent with Waterfront where you can go either Hastings or Waterfront proper, so you would think they could do it for some of them. Only think I can think of is that there was no vacant spot on Robson, so they'd have to enter a deal with Cadallac Fairview (Pacific Centre owners) for right-of-way, which may be pricey.

The Vancouver Centre station mezzanine stairs, escalator and elevator were part of the mall level of Pacific Centre and the plaza above - you can take the elevator from the street right into the Pacific Centre parkade under the station mezzanine.

The Robson St. entrance wouldn't need to be part of any other building. Using the Waterfront station as an example, the Hastings mezzanine entrance stairs & escalators are right at the curb of Granville and the elevator shaft is right on the property line -it actually blocks the stairs of the United Kingdom building.

The redevelopment of the SW corner of Robson/Granville (Granville Mall Optical) could have made provisions to connect to a new south entrance for the Vancouver Centre station mezzanine, but it since Translink doesn't want a new Robson St. entrance, there won't be anything for the new building to connect to. The developer isn't even making a provision for a future connection to a Robson St. Mezzanine entrance - which is a missed opportunity.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I believe 10th is already considered the best route in the existing documents.

For the majority of the line?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Old&New

For the majority of the line?

The whole way, yes - there is not going to be a subway under Broadway itself at any point.

[Old&New]

Do you have a link to the existing documents? I would really appreciate getting access to those.

[nname]

Beyond the B-Line report in here:

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This should please someone at Translink because not having to expropriate the Chevron property also means not having to pay big bucks to sanitize the site after decades of gasoline spills. They're still PO'd about the extra expense to detox the ground before they could build the King Edward station on the Canada Line.

Although They very well may need to expropriate the Imperial Oil site at the SE corner of 10th/Alma to build a station and would be back in the same boat to clean up the site.

[Old&New]

Thanks!

Originally Posted by awvan

Although They very well may need to expropriate the Imperial Oil site at the SE corner of 10th/Alma to build a station and would be back in the same boat to clean up the site.

Shouldn't Chevron be responsible for cleaning up their own brownfield?

[Pinion]

To say the Canada line only has one entrance at City Centre is a bit misleading. Most of the buildings from Robson to Dunsmuir and Richards to Howe are connected to it underground. I walked through Sears or the Bay or Pac Centre to get in when I worked there. Unless you're taking a bus going down Georgia st there's little reason to use the "official" escalator.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The whole way, yes - there is not going to be a subway under Broadway itself at any point.

Yep. It has been discussed many times before here on SSP. The "Broadway Corridor" encompasses 4th to 16th Avenue:

source: Human Transit

Preliminary station design puts the stations under 10th and the entrances on Broadway. Because 10th is at a higher elevation than Broadway, this allows the station entrances to be almost level with the station (especially if stations are built cut n' cover). You can probably find links to documents in this thread somewhere.

My preference is that the route will be done with a TBM but have stations that are cut n' cover. This will allow for shallow stations with almost level entrances off of Broadway.

This is what the diagrams I have seen (on this site) look like.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

Only think I can think of is that there was no vacant spot on Robson, so they'd have to enter a deal with Cadallac Fairview (Pacific Centre owners) for right-of-way, which may be pricey.

Well there's already an emergency exit stairwell that comes up right into the street at Robson & Granville. I can't understand why they couldn't have just widened it.

Originally Posted by Pinion

To say the Canada line only has one entrance at City Centre is a bit misleading. Most of the buildings from Robson to Dunsmuir and Richards to Howe are connected to it underground.

First of all that only works when the stores are open. Secondly, it doesn't matter whether you walk through the buildings or not, you still have to make your way northward most of the way to Georgia Street before you can access the station. With a south stairwell you could come out of Future Shop at Robson and Granville, for example, and descend directly into the station instead of having to walk 3/4 of a block north and then 1/2 block south again.

[djh]

Originally Posted by nname

Beyond the B-Line report in here:

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm

Did anybody notice this line in the study (page 4 - bold emphasis is mine):

Combinations Considered

The study considered six alternative combinations of the
three technologies, shown graphically in Figure 2.
The Steering Committee chose these 6 combinations as
the ones that were most practical for the transit rider (i.e.
fewer transfers along the route) and the transit provider
(i.e. cost effective). For example:

A - SkyTrain from Commercial to UBC is theoretically
possible, but, for cost reasons, not likely to be constructed
further west than Arbutus.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by djh

Did anybody notice this line in the study (page 4 - bold emphasis is mine):

Do note that the report is over 10 years old. some things have changed since 1999.