Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[incognism]

Maybe it's just me, but I see a UBC line relieving a lot of the pressure on the 41/43 and 49 routes.

Considering the number of riders that ride these lines end-to-end, you could assume that most would transfer UBC/Millennium Line to Expo Line in exchange for a much quicker commute.

[jlousa]

Agreed about the releif on bus lines, and that UBC will most likely be expected to contribute to the final stretch of the line. I also don't think Surrey will be surpassing Vancouver's as quickly as originally predicted. When it does overtake Vancouver it will only be due to sheer size, the density numbers will still not approach where Vancouver is today. This is in no means bashing Surrey or stating they don't deserve additional service. I just don't beleive the justification for Skytrain expansion exists at this point in time, while it does along Broadway.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by incognism

Maybe it's just me, but I see a UBC line relieving a lot of the pressure on the 41/43 and 49 routes.

Considering the number of riders that ride these lines end-to-end, you could assume that most would transfer UBC/Millennium Line to Expo Line in exchange for a much quicker commute.

Only agree with 41/43, the huge load problem with 49 is Langara + Canada Line transfer, which are arguably more important "destinations" for this route.
How much people ride 49 end-to-end (Metrotown to UBC)? the answer is probably close to 0-5%. Though quite a number of people in East Van rider this all the way to UBC

[NucksFanInVan]

I too would like to see the M-Line extended all the way to UBC. However, I'm also a pragmatist. Let's face it, the more fantastic (as in fantasy) the project, the harder it will be to come up with the $$, and the longer it will be before anything is done.

Are we really content to say "UBC or bust" knowing that the politics and finances might favour the "bust" option?

I think we realistically have to think about the project being planned all the way to UBC and implemented in at least two phases. The question is, how far do we have to go to make sure the first phase makes sense on its own merits (ie, that we aren't building a "stub to nowhere" a la VCC that waits for some magical future improvement)?

As I've posted previously, the logical Phase 1 termination for me is Arbutus.
1. Integrates with the C-Line (an absolute must)
2. serves the central broadway area
3. keeps B-Lines away from the gauntlet of stoplights through the Central Broadway section
4. Is roughly halfway to the end of the municipally-funded section (assuming Blanca)

So as we're all realists here (we are, aren't we? ) perhaps we should all be saying "Plan to UBC regardless. Build to UBC if we can, but at least build RRT to Arbutus as Phase 1."

Just my thoughts.

[incognism]

Originally Posted by CLC

Only agree with 41/43, the huge load problem with 49 is Langara + Canada Line transfer, which are arguably more important "destinations" for this route.
How much people ride 49 end-to-end (Metrotown to UBC)? the answer is probably close to 0-5%. Though quite a number of people in East Van rider this all the way to UBC

With the new line, any rider who normally takes the 49 to UBC would take a North/South arterial bus (Main/Fraser/Knight/Victoria) and transfer to either a Expo line station or a new M-Line station.

The problem with the 49 (as pointed out in another thread here on SSP) is that it carries too many UBC-bound riders very early in its route. Removing the vast majority of those riders will allow the 49 to go back to a frequency level more suitable for that road.

A fantasy would be to have the UBC Line built, and then to have every other 49 short-turn at Cambie (knowing that there's no space to do so), or to go south on Cambie and double up with the 15 between 49th and Marine Gateway.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

My point is people should not assume this is all money to be dispersed arbitrarily. The last 5 km to UBC is outside of city governance and has unique potential funding solutions, in a similar manner to the YVR branch of the Canada Line.

It's not feasible to say that the last part of the UBC line can be substituted by a line to Kootenay Loop or anywhere else.

I'm not sure what maps you've been looking at, but the UBC Endowment Lands start West of Blanca at 10th Ave.
Blanca to Wesbrook Mall along University Blvd is just under 1.5 Miles (2.4 KM).
Add another 1000 feet to have the the subway station at the old Transit Loop at University Blvd @ East Mall.

Since UBC and UBC Endowment Lands are part of the study, I can see both of these parties being asked to pay the construction costs for their section of the line west of Blanca, and some formula is developed so they are sharing in the operating / maintenance costs.

[bardak]

Just some rough stats on the estimated savings from various places in Vancouver. I came up with the numbers using google maps and the estimates from the Translink study. I added 5min for each transfer and only the two provided travel times. eg. Any rides on the hypothetical Broadway line east of Cambie added 20min and anything west of Cambie was 14min so the numbers are rather conservative.

[Millennium2002]

I'm very confused about the axes. What is considered time saved... negative percent or positive percent? And why does the graph seem so out of expectation in that some routes actually have time lost to RRT? That part really doesn't make much sense to me =S

EDIT: never mind, your numbers are estimates. Perhaps you should emphasize that on the graph itself... otherwise I can see people seizing this and saying all sorts of weird, opposite conclusions like "There's a conspiracy! The actual effectiveness of RRT is not much greater than LRT as is seen on this graph!" And believe me... that has happened before. =S

[hollywoodnorth]

Originally Posted by bardak

helps if you know how to spell Granville properly as well.

[nname]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I'm very confused about the axes. What is considered time saved... negative percent or positive percent? And why does the graph seem so out of expectation in that some routes actually have time lost to RRT? That part really doesn't make much sense to me =S

EDIT: never mind, your numbers are estimates. Perhaps you should emphasize that on the graph itself... otherwise I can see people seizing this and saying all sorts of weird, opposite conclusions like "There's a conspiracy! The actual effectiveness of RRT is not much greater than LRT as is seen on this graph!" And believe me... that has happened before. =S

I assume the 49@Granville means instead of travelling on 49 directly to UBC, you take the 16 to Broadway and transferred to the proposed SkyTrain to UBC.

By the way, what about using these estimated travel times instead?
Arbutus: 9min
Granville: 11min
Cambie: 14min
Main: 16min
Knight (VCC): 19min
Elliott: I assume you use the actual travel time to Commercial +20min for this one

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

helps if you know how to spell Granville properly as well.

and Elliot St ...

[Millennium2002]

Here are some of my own calculations... they were done in a spreadsheet format that I think is easier to compare to. =S

[bardak]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Here are some of my own calculations... they were done in a spreadsheet format that I think is easier to compare to. =S

You did a much better job than I did. I think that a comparison for Waterfront(for downtown and the Northshore) and Bridgeport(for Richmond, South Delta, and South Surrey) across the different option would also be informative.

[logan5]

Nice table. That must have taken a bit of time.

One calculation that's missing is the N/S Cambie Canada Line. I would think there would be some good time savings going from 49th and Cambie on C line then M line. Come to think of it, since the 49th is so slow, it might be worth it for someone at Main or Fraser to transfer at C line then M line.

[Millennium2002]

Good point. I based the bus commute times purely on direct rides along the current east-west corridor routes (if possible) from the various intersections. And actually it only took about three hours or so to get out all the numbers.

I might take a look later at the following:
- Compare route 44, which serves Downtown Vancouver, North Vancouver and North Burnaby, with a Canada Line and Broadway SkyTrain combo.
- The Canada Line shortcut for Vancouver's east-west corridor routes.
- Compare route 480, serving Richmond, with a Canada Line and Broadway SkyTrain combo.

As for other cities and communities like Coquitlam, Surrey, Langley, and the like, I will assume that most people commuting to UBC from home would probably take the SkyTrain to BroadGate and then switch over to the B-Line and continue on their way to UBC. In that case, I have already done the comparison for the Broadway corridor between the two modes (B-Line vs SkyTrain), and that part of their commutes will probably be the only area where a time savings would result (that is, if no other transit improvements in the outlying areas are forthcoming).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Good point. I based the bus commute times purely on direct rides along the current east-west corridor routes (if possible) from the various intersections. And actually it only took about three hours or so to get out all the numbers.

I might take a look later at the following:
- Compare route 44, which serves Downtown Vancouver, North Vancouver and North Burnaby, with a Canada Line and Broadway SkyTrain combo.
- The Canada Line shortcut for Vancouver's east-west corridor routes.
- Compare route 480, serving Richmond, with a Canada Line and Broadway SkyTrain combo.

As for other cities and communities like Coquitlam, Surrey, Langley, and the like, I will assume that most people commuting to UBC from home would probably take the SkyTrain to BroadGate and then switch over to the B-Line and continue on their way to UBC. In that case, I have already done the comparison for the Broadway corridor between the two modes (B-Line vs SkyTrain), and that part of their commutes will probably be the only area where a time savings would result (that is, if no other transit improvements in the outlying areas are forthcoming).

?? BroadGate ??

Has Broadway - Commercial station been renamed yet again?

[Old&New]

Has this alignment for Skytrain expansion to UBC not been considered?:
(Scotia Street, to 10th Ave., to University Blvd.)

[squeezied]

What's the purpose for extending the "S" curve out further west? Unless there's a good reason for having a station around 2nd and Scotia as opposed to one further east, you're just magnifying the "S" curve and thus lengthening it which will add to the cost.

Moreover, there's a proposed condominium on the northwest corner of 10th and Kingsway where the allignment you've suggested passes through. Unless the tunnelling will be sufficiently deep at this location, there will be geotechnical issues imposed by the sheer weight of the condo.

[Old&New]

I assumed following the street would make excavation easier, thus less costly... Would it not?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Old&New

I assumed following the street would make excavation easier, thus less costly... Would it not?

Perhaps, but there isn't going to be any 'excavation' (aka Cut and Cover) because the city council has decreed no Cut and Cover tunnels ever again after the Cambie fiasco.

Even though Translink &tc are 'examining all the options' in the Broadway/UBC studies, tunnelling will have to be done using TBM.
The exception will have to be made for digging the pits needed to build the stations, but those will only impact the single blocks on either side of the station, not 60 blocks between UBC and Kingsway.

Using the TBM method, the route from VCC can head south on the Prince Edward alignment to Kingsgate Mall. The tunnels that are curving from Prince Edward to 10th Ave can be under the east side of the Kingsgate Mall property. The mall building isn't impacted, as the tunnels will actually be under the east-side parking lot.

Once you're under 10th Ave, the station can be between Main St and Kingsway, with entrances from both Main and Kingsway sides. When Kingsgate Mall gets redeveloped, they could make a direct connection to the station from the east side of Kingsway.

Using the 10th Ave alignment gives you a straight shot to UBC, making the construction easier and it will have minimal impact on Broadway traffic during construction. As happened when the TBM was building the Canada Line tunnels downtown, unless you're right on the blocks where the stations are under construction, you probably won't be impacted by the construction going on under your feet.