Calgary Public Transit II

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Aegis

I'm not sure if CT views it that way, but if so.. there's a major problem there. The community is already built, and people want convenience or else they won't use transit.

Maybe in not so many words, and perhaps without the suggestion to move, but I can guarantee you that they do.

There is a reason that bus routes are "inconvenient" in such communities. It is entirely linked to and an intrinsic trait of the way they are built. The long and winding route that serves the community is close to the best possible way to run one using the infrastructure that has been designed and built. To make it more convenient to any significant degree would involve:

1. Bulldozing a strip of homes and roads in a direct line from the edge of the community that is the furthest from the station all the way to the station, and have a bus run along it.

2. Increasing the frequency twofold or threefold by either adding service hours or taking them from existing routes. An increase would be paid for by taxes that people have said they don't want to be raised, or fares that people have also said they don't want to be raised. The funding and fare strategy item that went to council on Monday has said as much.

Originally Posted by Aegis

So what do we do? Say "you are stupid for living there, go move somewhere else if you want to use public transit"? That hardly seems reasonable. Governments invest millions of dollars putting the train to Crowfoot, but then skimp on the necessary and important details like making it convenient for people to use.

Completely agreed. Those details involve land use - they must. There's only so much you can do with a limited transit budget.

Originally Posted by Aegis

CT should respond to what the customer wants/needs, not dictate to the customer what they need.

That's all well and good - until a limit is reached as to what people are willing to pay for it, or you add service somewhere at the expense of another area's customers.

Originally Posted by Aegis

If the purpose of feeder routes is to feed the train, then why are they viewed independently of the train?

Of course, but they aren't viewed independently really. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Powered switches are expensive, especially if you want them to work in winter. A crossover would have 4 switches needing to be heated through those colder winter nights. Last thing you would want would be a derailment due to a switch issue!

Redesigning the signal system so that it could handle the situation without people manually clearing the trains at the switches would be a big issue too. It would help with a longer term problems (such as one lasting more than 2 hours) but you certainly wouldn't be able to do it on the fly.

I would rather have money go to replacing the buggiest U2s and other state of good repair things. Treat the causes, not the symptoms.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Discussing transit with some coworkers during the week.

Several of them live in the Tuscany or Rocky Ridge area, but drive to the Park & Ride at McMahon. Basically bypassing the millions of dollars of transit investment in Crowchild corridor in the past 10 years.

The reason? Crowfoot LRT parking is full at an unreasonably early time, and the feeder bus route isn't convenient for them.

I've always wondered why CT doesn't make the feeder busses more frequent/convenient. Seems like there would be more efficient utilization if small problems like that could be solved.

I don't see anything wrong with this - they are responding to the transportation marketplace and making their choice. I'd bet some of them complained bitterly during the park and ride fee implementation, even though now for convenience sake they go to a pay lot.

They feel it saves them time vs taking the feeder bus - unless they have irregular hours I'd bet if they tried it for a week and actually timed their trips it wouldn't look so bad in comparison. That time waiting for the feeder bus can feel like an eternity. I know in Toronto over time I got frustrated with waiting the 2 minutes for the next train during rush hour after getting used to it. (I switched to biking most places in response)

Perhaps they should take the city up on their reserved spot system since they are already paying at McMahon.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Discussing transit with some coworkers during the week.

Several of them live in the Tuscany or Rocky Ridge area, but drive to the Park & Ride at McMahon. Basically bypassing the millions of dollars of transit investment in Crowchild corridor in the past 10 years.

The reason? Crowfoot LRT parking is full at an unreasonably early time, and the feeder bus route isn't convenient for them.

I've always wondered why CT doesn't make the feeder buses more frequent/convenient. Seems like there would be more efficient utilization if small problems like that could be solved.

Issues with the Crowchild feeder bus system:
A) 74/174 - Tuscany. These buses go onto Stoney and Crowchild rather than utilize a cut through Scenic Acres. Using the cut through route would save 5-10 minutes and make the bus seem faster than taking a car.
B) 58/158 - The 58 kind of impedes on the 158 route. To make it better. The 58 should be express from Crowfoot to Rocky Ridge and be realigned so that it exits out of 12 mile Coolee Road. This would provide separation between 58 and 158 routes.
C)199/299 - The 199 serves both Citadel and Arbour Lake and duplicates a lot of functionality with 299. The easy fix is to have the 199 become express once it leaves Citadel (beside the Esso) and the go straight down Nose Hill Drive to Crowfoot. Rework the 299 route so that it only serves Arbor Lake. Likely turning it into an Arbour Lake Loop. For extra credit, turn the 199 into a loop as well, the Citadel End of 199 could exit to Country Hills-Stoney-Crowchild.
D) 37/137/43/143 Northwest Loop shenanigans should be straightened out so that each community has its own feeder service to either Crowfoot or Dalhousie.

To accomplish all of the above, CT would have to set up a separate route network for schools (particularly middle schools). For example the Citadel rug rats in grades 5-9 go to Arbour Lake School, they are the only transit users who benefit from the 199 going through Arbour Lake.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Cage

D) 37/137/43/143 Northwest Loop shenanigans should be straightened out so that each community has its own feeder service to either Crowfoot or Dalhousie.

Speaking as someone who uses the 43/143 on a daily basis, I actually don't find it to be too bad. The worst part of of the routes is the huge loop that the 43/143 take through Crowfoot by going from the LRT station then all the way up to the YMCA and then back down Nosehill onto Ranchlands Blvd. Cut that out and just leave one of the other routes that actually needs to go north out of Crowfoot to serve it and you'd cut a good 10 minutes off both. East of Crowfoot isn't too bad, there really isn't a more straight route you can take. Timewise it isn't bad, I can leave my house (near the west side of Ranchlands) on the 43 at 8:23am and be at the University by 8:50 including the usual break at Dalhousie and transferring to the 20 at Brentwood. If I go on the 143 at 8:10am and go to Crowfoot then jump on the LRT I usually make it to campus by around 8:35 or so.

The south half of the loop I haven't really ridden enough to comment on, but it doesn't seem too bad either.

Also, the 74/174 and 58/158 are going to change quite a bit once the Tuscany Station opens. Draft Feeder network plan

[Cage]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

They feel it saves them time vs taking the feeder bus - unless they have irregular hours I'd bet if they tried it for a week and actually timed their trips it wouldn't look so bad in comparison. That time waiting for the feeder bus can feel like an eternity. I know in Toronto over time I got frustrated with waiting the 2 minutes for the next train during rush hour after getting used to it. (I switched to biking most places in response)

If I had to rely on the 199 instead of PnR to get to Crowfoot, my commute would increase 25 minutes in each direction. PnR does save time.

[kap384]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I would rather have money go to replacing the buggiest U2s and other state of good repair things. Treat the causes, not the symptoms.

I raised this question a few weeks ago with no response. With what seems to be an increase in mechanical ctrain delays in all types of weather, what is the breakdown of the culprits?

Are there a handful of U2's causing a disproportionate # of problems? Is there a high percentage of line or canternary problems in a section of line?

Basically, is there a shortlist of repairs that could address frustrating delays? (realizing eliminating U2's is planned and isn't cheap)

Thanks

[kap384]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Discussing transit with some coworkers during the week.

Several of them live in the Tuscany or Rocky Ridge area, but drive to the Park & Ride at McMahon. Basically bypassing the millions of dollars of transit investment in Crowchild corridor in the past 10 years.

The reason? Crowfoot LRT parking is full at an unreasonably early time, and the feeder bus route isn't convenient for them.

I've always wondered why CT doesn't make the feeder busses more frequent/convenient. Seems like there would be more efficient utilization if small problems like that could be solved.

As a resident of Royal Oak for almost 10 years, I've seen quite the transit evolution in terms of getting to my job downtown. It's gotten progressively better throughout that time. Started with express buses straight downtown (because the feeder system to Brentwood was infrequent and inconvenient), drove to Dalhousie Park n Ride for a bit, drove downtown, and then returned to the c-train when Crowfoot opened.

The feeder bus network is reasonably convenient, and so much better than it used to be. My feeder bus trip is only 10 min in either direction. Even though I think the Tuscany station is overkill at this point, if it gets built while I still live here, my feeder bus times will get even better.

The thing is, I didn't just buy a house in the burbs and expect there to be a handy transit solution at my front door. I'm not saying transit played a huge role in my purchase, but I certainly understood the existing transit situation and the planned improvements and extensions. I wasn't going to commit to having to drive downtown everyday.

People put thought into the location they choose to live, be it schools, proximity to work, amenities, but I'm not convinced many people put a lot of weight on the transit options.

I'm going to venture to guess that some of the individuals that complain about Calgary transit service relative to where they live, didn't put any thought into transit when they bought their homes.

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by kap384

I raised this question a few weeks ago with no response. With what seems to be an increase in mechanical ctrain delays in all types of weather, what is the breakdown of the culprits?

Are there a handful of U2's causing a disproportionate # of problems? Is there a high percentage of line or canternary problems in a section of line?

Basically, is there a shortlist of repairs that could address frustrating delays? (realizing eliminating U2's is planned and isn't cheap)

Thanks

While all trains breakdown, regardless of age, the U2s do have a good deal to do with the problem, particularly in the cold (because of where the fan vents are, blowing snow gets sucked into the motors, causing shorts - which is why when its really snowy and cold, we have slow orders).

The idea of more crossovers is a great one, and one I hope they act on, because it would have a huge effect on delays. It may not stop problems (I'm not sure if anything can), but it makes it a lot easier to run some sort of train service around a problem area, particularly if the switches are powered, and don't need a response from field personnel to throw them (it takes time for personnel to arrive on scene). The worst delays occur when there's problems in the South between 39th Avenue and Heritage, in the NE between downtown and Whitehorn, and in the NW between downtown and University. That's because there's fewer crossovers, and the ones that are there are manual. If you even just powered up the existing manual crossovers, you'd notice a huge reduction in delays when there is some sort of disruption. There would be delays, just a lot smaller.

The NE is the worst, because almost all of the crossovers have trailing point switches only - meaning that a train can't use them if running normally, only if already reverse running or if pulled backwards through the switches. I believe it was originally a safety concern when building the NE line, so they only built trailing crossovers, but looking back on it, it was a big oversight. Transit is working to make it a little better, slowly - they added a facing point crossover at Marlborough last year - but you really need facing switches at every crossover, and it would be great if they were powered. Today was a good example of this: there was a catenary problem in the 36th Street tunnel inbound - but delays were fairly minor and low-key, because the new facing-point crossover at Marlborough allowed the trains to single-track to the switches at Franklin fairly easily. If there was powered switches, alternative service could've begun instantly.

Any thoughts?

[lineman]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

I believe it was originally a safety concern when building the NE line, so they only built trailing crossovers, but looking back on it, it was a big oversight.

Replace safety with money.

[kap384]

City Hall south platform is open as of today.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Discussing transit with some coworkers during the week.

Several of them live in the Tuscany or Rocky Ridge area, but drive to the Park & Ride at McMahon. Basically bypassing the millions of dollars of transit investment in Crowchild corridor in the past 10 years.

The reason? Crowfoot LRT parking is full at an unreasonably early time, and the feeder bus route isn't convenient for them.

Um - no offense, but I'd look into getting another job. You clearly work with idiots:

1. Crowfoot is full - OMG let's bypass Dalhousie and Brentwood stations entirely, and drive 3x as far!

2. Crowfoot is full due to these paid parkers - OMG let's pay at McMahon!

This just sounds like people who want to piss and moan instead of actually looking at their problem. They completely ignore the obvious solutions and go for the stupidest, easiest-to-complain about option.

The feeder buses aren't always the most convenient, granted. Even I don't take it every single day of my life. So if I can't make it to Crowfoot before it fills, I hit up Dalhousie. If that's full, I hit up Brentwood. I've never not gotten a spot somewhere. There's a window of time (well after 8am, but before 10am) where all 3 are likely filled - have any of these people thought about going into work just a bit earlier or later? There's ALWAYS plenty of room at Crowfoot after 10am. Maybe you work at the lone downtown office that uses punch clocks, but most people I know can at least move their working hours around *slightly*. Hell, in a city where seemingly 90% of the people have young kids in daycare, damn near everyone I know is on an odd schedule. I'm sure they could make an attempt to fit transit into their plans better.

I used to know people who'd drive to McMahon. Years ago. When the PnR lots were free and almost never filled. When I asked them, they mostly said that driving is "faster" so they try to cram as much driving into their commute as possible, and take the train for the shortest possible distance. With Banff Trail being the last feasible option for this, plenty of NW commuters used to do this. While Brentwood sat half empty. These people are not trying to utilize transit, they're simply trying to avoid paying for downtown parking. And there's a huge difference here. I honestly haven't heard of a single person driving to McMahon in years, but it was something half my co-workers used to do. Until the closer stations opened up.

And quite frankly, if people are bypassing the massive Crowchild improvements, no one's missing them. The train is getting consistently packed again, so it's not like the system isn't being fully utilized.

I dunno, it just seems either improbable what they're saying, or they truly have not spent more than 3 minutes examining their options. I'd never in a million years think of driving to McMahon except on a complete desperation basis because I completely cocked up my schedule due to an unforeseen disaster at home or something. Certainly not on a regular basis, when there are so many other ways to deal with the situation. Hell, purely on cost alone $70/month for a reserved Crowfoot spot would be cheaper than adding another 17km round trip driving every single day (plus paying at McMahon - I'm still scratching my head over this one). Plus you get to sit on the train most of the time.

[lubicon]

Speaking for Tuscany, the feeder busses aren't really all that bad right now. Basically Tuscany is a big circle and the 2 feeder routes go around the circle in different directions (one clockwise, the other couterclockwise). All you need to know is one route will get you to Crowfoot faster, the other route will get you home from Crowfoot faster depending on where you live on the 'circle'. All it takes is a little homework to read the schedule and figure it out. When (if!!) the new Tuscany station opens things should get much better as you will take about 5-10 minutes off the bus time required to get from your house to the nearest LRT station.

I guess I'm lucky in that I leave on one of the first streets you come to as you enter Tuscany. On either the 74 or the 174 I am at one of the first stops when you come into the community and one of the last stops as you leave.

Agreed thought in the point about busses using Scenic Acres rather than Crowchild/Stoney. But the folks in Scenic Acres would probably scream if they had 2 more bus routes 'cutting' through their community.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Not yet. The entire system will be 4-car capable by 2014. Several stations are currently under construction or have recently completed their extension.

I know it can't yet, but is there enough room for 4 cars in the future? I haven't been on the Train south of DT in a few years, so I can't remember exactly, but 39th seems a bit tight.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I know it can't yet, but is there enough room for 4 cars in the future? I haven't been on the Train south of DT in a few years, so I can't remember exactly, but 39th seems a bit tight.

There is, but barely. If 5 car trains ever come to pass (as an increasing amount of City of Calgary reports and studies are pointing to), then either the station will have to be moved or 39th Avenue closed to vehicle traffic.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

There is, but barely. If 5 car trains ever come to pass (as an increasing amount of City of Calgary reports and studies are pointing to), then either the station will have to be moved or 39th Avenue closed to vehicle traffic.

I didn't know they were considering 5 car trains, would be a good idea if you ask me. They would probably have to move 39th St somewhere else, there is lots of space just across 38A Ave. Though any agreement would likely have to involve a land transfer of sorts.

[floobie]

As I'm now a member of the downtown workforce, I'm having to deal with these issues first-hand. Finding a parking spot at Dalhousie station has been a challenge. Though, that Herald article I posted earlier, claiming that only 16% of reserved spots are sold or something... I'm not so sure on that. The reserved section in Dalhousie at least is quite full well before 10am. I ended up deciding to grab a reservation for Dalhousie... seems like the best alternative for me. I don't want to add any uncertainty to my morning routine, wondering if I MIGHT get a spot at Dalhousie (or Brentwood, I guess). I'm definitely not a morning person, so the more time I can spend sleeping, and the less of a headache my commute is, the better.

Transit is definitely the way to go, though. My dad let me use his parking pass while he went out of town for a few days. Driving to downtown, at least when I'm leaving (8:30-ish), pretty much blows. So, I can safely say I'm not taking transit downtown JUST to avoid paying for parking. Driving to Dalhousie station and taking the train is quite a lot faster, and much less frustrating... or it will be, once my parking reservation kicks in at the start of October.

[fusili]

Not only is parking downtown horrendously expensive, but just trying to get out during rush hour is horrible. It can take you 30 minutes just to get through the downtown on bad days. And don't get me started on Deerfoot south. I have to drive to soccer on Tuesdays occasionally in the SE and it is a complete nightmare every single time. I have no idea why someone would drive into downtown, unless they are in an area not serviced by the LRT.

[fusili]

I know I posted something similar before, but just some fun with numbers if people are interested. These are the catchments for each of the LRTs (and some select BRTs), including future growth as per city growth plans (unfortunately I used the 2010 census for this, so #s will be a bit off). Growth in existing communities is not included for simplicity sake:

NWLRT- 173K (current), 182K (future)
South LRT- 219K (current), 370K (future)
NE LRT- 148K (current), 200K (future)
West LRT- 116K (current), 116K (future- no regional policy plans for the area)
SE LRT- 87K (current), 272K (future)
NC LRT- 150K (current), 333K (future)

BRT 305 (east portion)- 42K (current), 108K (future)
BRT 305 (west protion)- 24K (current and future)
SW BRT- 39K (current and future, would be taken off South LRT catchment)

Thoughts?

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by fusili

Not only is parking downtown horrendously expensive, but just trying to get out during rush hour is horrible. It can take you 30 minutes just to get through the downtown on bad days. And don't get me started on Deerfoot south. I have to drive to soccer on Tuesdays occasionally in the SE and it is a complete nightmare every single time. I have no idea why someone would drive into downtown, unless they are in an area not serviced by the LRT.

I don't understand how or why people are willing to sit in traffic for 30 minutes to just get out of downtown on a daily basis. Is having a house in the suburbs really worth that? I mean for the time and money people spend commuting, they could buy a house in the inner city instead of Cranston or Tuscany.